by louisealmond
on July 01, 2010 at 11:29AM
all schools must hold a collective worship daily, such as in assemblies. usually this is chritian, surely assemblies about moral issues would be more appropriate and inclusive.
Why the contribution is important
collective worship is almost indoctrinating children, telling them that these ideas are correct without argument. religion should be caught subjectivly to allow children to make up their own minds.
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Posted by
nsmith
July 01, 2010 at 11:33
Absolutely.
Assemblies are useful but collective worship should NEVER be enforced.
Assemblies are useful but collective worship should NEVER be enforced.
Posted by
philipnorton42
July 01, 2010 at 11:42
Indoctrinating children into a religion is child abuse. Plain and simple.
Posted by
aimeturner
July 01, 2010 at 11:45
Collective worship:
forces young people to pray or worship in other ways, regardless of their personal beliefs;
does not respect children’s and young people’s rights to freedom of religion or belief;
does not recognise the plurality of beliefs in the UK.
The system whereby you can opt your child out of religious worship is deeply flawed in theory and practice (under 16s can’t opt-themselves out without their parents’ permission).
Inclusive assemblies are a better alternative and contribute more to well being and development.
forces young people to pray or worship in other ways, regardless of their personal beliefs;
does not respect children’s and young people’s rights to freedom of religion or belief;
does not recognise the plurality of beliefs in the UK.
The system whereby you can opt your child out of religious worship is deeply flawed in theory and practice (under 16s can’t opt-themselves out without their parents’ permission).
Inclusive assemblies are a better alternative and contribute more to well being and development.
Posted by
CB
July 01, 2010 at 11:48
Collective worship has no place in a modern society. Let it be up to the individual to decide on the spiritual needs of their children, not the state.
Posted by
DavidPollock
July 01, 2010 at 11:52
This is a reform the British Humanist Association has been campaigning on for over 50 years! It has wide support among the public and many religious groups. There are time-consuming bureaucratic procedures for some schools to obtain opt-outs ("determinations") and the law also involves Ofsted in pointless inspection of schools' (non-)compliance. Scrap teh law and allow schools to have inclusive, values-driven assemblies - which they are quite capable of without any compulsion!
Posted by
jdoe
July 01, 2010 at 12:02
No comprehensive school should engage in any worship and should be secular, otherwise schools are "teaching" one particular religion to children too young to make up their minds who will be coerced into a particular religion without argument as they are not taught any alternatives. This should have always been, or at least been changed long ago.
Posted by
System32
July 01, 2010 at 12:09
The only schools which force worship are schools set up by the faith they are worshiping, they are not state schools and if you don't want your child to worship thier god then don't send your child to that school, they are always exceptionally clear as to their intentions prior to your child attending and the hint is in the name, if it's a catholic school, then they will worship catholisism, only an idiot would send their child to such a school who didn't want their child being brought up on such a faith.
No state schools engage in compulsary religious worship anymore.
No state schools engage in compulsary religious worship anymore.
Posted by
Johnny
July 01, 2010 at 12:10
I believe religion has no place in a school unless that school is ran by a particular faith. By having a collective worship it serves no purpose and can create anxiety in children whose families may not have the same values. The time has come to end collective worship in schools and let families teach their religion to their children.
Posted by
lucylucy
July 01, 2010 at 12:11
All worship, everywhere, should be respected as a private practice. Any form of evangelising is oppressive.
Posted by
DavidPollock
July 01, 2010 at 12:19
If you agree with this suggestion of scrapping compulsory worship in schools, have a look also at http://yourfreedom.hmg.gov.uk/[…]/idea-view
Posted by
System32
July 01, 2010 at 12:20
Please note, collective worship is only practiced in schools run by a religions faith, it has been abolished in all state schools already.
I find no reason for a religions faith running a scool of their faith to practice their faith within their school.
Also, should a parent send their child to a religiously run school set up by a particular faith, they should expect that their child will be taught by that faith as the school is run by that faith and is not state run.
Also, for the record, I am Agnostic and do not personally gain by religious schools being able to continue teaching their faith, I just feel they should be allowed to.
I find no reason for a religions faith running a scool of their faith to practice their faith within their school.
Also, should a parent send their child to a religiously run school set up by a particular faith, they should expect that their child will be taught by that faith as the school is run by that faith and is not state run.
Also, for the record, I am Agnostic and do not personally gain by religious schools being able to continue teaching their faith, I just feel they should be allowed to.
Posted by
Tom
July 01, 2010 at 12:24
Which schools force compulsory religious worship? My wife's school certainly doesn't.
Posted by
SusanD
July 01, 2010 at 12:29
Collective worship was introduced whilst I was at school. Children should not be subjected to state sponsered religious indoctrination. No school which receives state funding should do anything other than teach children about all the different religions in the world, including atheism, agnostacism, mystacism, new age spiritualism and humanism. They should not encourage faith based belief.
Posted by
mjadams
July 01, 2010 at 12:29
One of the commenters above has stated that only faith schools "force worship".
Sadly, this is not correct - the law requires ALL MAINTAINED SCHOOLS to conduct a daily form of collective worship that is "wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character".
This is nothing short of indoctrination and has no place in a modern society.
Sadly, this is not correct - the law requires ALL MAINTAINED SCHOOLS to conduct a daily form of collective worship that is "wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character".
This is nothing short of indoctrination and has no place in a modern society.
Posted by
grumbleburger
July 01, 2010 at 12:34
Schools are for the Education of our children, not for the 'brainwashing' of our childen with someone elses beliefs.
Posted by
Spirokeat
July 01, 2010 at 12:43
Could not agree more. All modern societies should be completely secular in nature. I should not have the views of any one faith thrust upon me in a legal context.
I for one will NOT allow my children to be indoctrinated in this manner.
I for one will NOT allow my children to be indoctrinated in this manner.
Posted by
adamhumphreys
July 01, 2010 at 12:45
many schools quite rightly breach this law anyway
Posted by
bevsan
July 01, 2010 at 13:43
Note that this exact topic is also being discussed in another thread at http://yourfreedom.hmg.gov.uk/[…]/stop-compulsory-worship-in-schools.
System32, you are wrong that collective worship is only enforced in religious schools. It is a legal requirement for all schools, hence the frustration! See http://www.humanism.org.uk/[…]/worship-your-rights.
System32, you are wrong that collective worship is only enforced in religious schools. It is a legal requirement for all schools, hence the frustration! See http://www.humanism.org.uk/[…]/worship-your-rights.
Posted by
bevsan
July 01, 2010 at 13:47
System32, you are also wrong when you imply that schools run by religious faiths are not state schools. Most religious schools are fully funded by the tax payer. I wish more people would realise that and start campaigning against it! See http://www.accordcoalition.org.uk/ for more info.
Posted by
jenjen
July 01, 2010 at 14:05
Goodness me - had no idea there was such a bizarre law! As an ex-convent school girl (where "worship" was just silent giggling time), and a responsible mother who had to go on the church cleaning rota just to get her sons into a decent school, enough is enough. Keep religion out of our state schools and stop funding selective schools.
What really is "worship" anyway - does anyone know? Please let's move into the 21st century.
What really is "worship" anyway - does anyone know? Please let's move into the 21st century.
Posted by
shazray
July 01, 2010 at 15:25
I want my children to be educated about what different religions believe, but not to be forced to pray in a certain way or even at all - unless they want to.
Posted by
gonzolagonda
July 01, 2010 at 16:32
Let's get this to the top of the list!
Posted by
daniel12345
July 01, 2010 at 17:10
lol if anyone chooses to send their children to a faith school and then bitches that they have to follow that faith is an idiot, just dont send your child to a faith school lmao this isnt even an issue.
Posted by
hopeknotty
July 01, 2010 at 18:08
Why IS it, that so many, who are so adamant against the Christian religion, INSIST on enrolling their children in these religious schools, and then profusely complain,about them? Could it be...that these ARE these schools produce EXCELLENT end of year results?
How ironic, that these are the same people who want the Christmas and Easter holidays of the Christian religion that seems to be so despised?
How ironic, that these are the same people who want the Christmas and Easter holidays of the Christian religion that seems to be so despised?
Posted by
bevsan
July 01, 2010 at 18:59
daniel12345 and hopeknotty, you have misunderstood. This is not about faith schools. The law as it stands says that ALL schools must hold daily acts of collective worship, even community schools. Some schools ignore it, but by no means all. Read this BBC article describing how the church recently tried to get the law more tightly enforced: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/5072756.stm
Posted by
IDidntVoteForCameron
July 01, 2010 at 19:08
Religion is part of the problem, not the answer.
Help by teaching kids to think critically. Collective Worship is indoctrination, not education and has no place in school.
Help by teaching kids to think critically. Collective Worship is indoctrination, not education and has no place in school.
Posted by
mcottle
July 01, 2010 at 19:10
It is probably true that some parents playing the system to try to gain an adavantage for their children are hypocritical about faith-based schools, but that does not change the fundamental problem with having national requirements that enforce promotion of Christianity. I have no problem with people having freedom to practice whatever religion they choose, but it is wrong to force a particular religion onto children. I am sure that in many cases it is also counter-productive, resulting in many students having a negative perspective on religion and seeing it as something that people tried to force on them. It would be much better to teach children to have analytical and philosophical skills that would allow them to choose their own beliefs - and it might even result in a society that takes religious belief more seriously. Finally, at a time when public finances are being crushed, it is outrageous to impose any un-necessary burden on schools. As a former chair of a secondary school governors finance committee I know that one reason why many schools do not meet the existing RE requirements is that they would have to recruit additional teachers - which could only happen at the expense of losses in other subjects.
By the way, I have recently posted my own proposals in relation to a secular state.
By the way, I have recently posted my own proposals in relation to a secular state.
Posted by
IDidntVoteForCameron
July 01, 2010 at 19:11
Religion is part of the problem, not the answer.
Help by teaching kids to think critically. Collective Worship is indoctrination, not education and has no place in school.
Help by teaching kids to think critically. Collective Worship is indoctrination, not education and has no place in school.
Posted by
Curlytop
July 01, 2010 at 19:35
NO!!!!!
This law must stay and must be enforced. Everybody needs to be aware, as young as possible, that there is a Higher Authority that they must someday answer to.
This law must stay and must be enforced. Everybody needs to be aware, as young as possible, that there is a Higher Authority that they must someday answer to.
Posted by
mtaylor
July 01, 2010 at 19:35
"Any form of evangelising is oppressive."
Sorry, but that infringes my right to freedom of speech. If I want to tell you that Jesus can give you hope, I am free to do so. You are also free not to listen. That is not oppresive!
Sorry, but that infringes my right to freedom of speech. If I want to tell you that Jesus can give you hope, I am free to do so. You are also free not to listen. That is not oppresive!
Posted by
gpools
July 01, 2010 at 19:37
This is NOT about whether religion is right or wrong, good or bad, this is about being fair and just, building an inclusive society and giving children the choice.
My children go to a "Community" school, not a relgious one yet they still have Christianity preached to them because the current law is biased.
One of the flaws of the current law is that it is open to massive interpretation, and even schools aren't sure what they should and shouldn't be saying (I know because I've had the discussion with the head teacher). What does "broadly Christian" mean anyway?
I feel that religious education is valid so that children can learn about different faiths and therefore empathise and make an informed decision in later life should they wish to do so.
However, religious bias and worship should not be dictated by an out-dated and offensive law - this could be seen as an infringment of our Human Rights.
Leave religious worship for children out of schools and down to parents who wish to brainwash their own children.
My children go to a "Community" school, not a relgious one yet they still have Christianity preached to them because the current law is biased.
One of the flaws of the current law is that it is open to massive interpretation, and even schools aren't sure what they should and shouldn't be saying (I know because I've had the discussion with the head teacher). What does "broadly Christian" mean anyway?
I feel that religious education is valid so that children can learn about different faiths and therefore empathise and make an informed decision in later life should they wish to do so.
However, religious bias and worship should not be dictated by an out-dated and offensive law - this could be seen as an infringment of our Human Rights.
Leave religious worship for children out of schools and down to parents who wish to brainwash their own children.
Posted by
Howicit
July 01, 2010 at 20:06
Schools should teach children options so that they grow up being able to make informed choices based on evidence, Vulcan Logic, and their own feelings .... lets not dictate to children and remove their natural ability to make their own decisions. Vote in favour of scrapping laws where children are prescribed what to believe - get rid of collective worship in schools now.
Posted by
WeeBaldie
July 01, 2010 at 20:44
The state is not in the business of funding religious indoctrination. Period.
Posted by
Germanjoe
July 01, 2010 at 20:46
Religion is simply a form of apartheid of the worst kind! Teaching children that by praying to a non-existant deity is like teaching them that fairies are real. Religion divides - it does not unite. Far better for children to learn humanist approaches to life so that they value ALL peoples regardless of colour or creed
Posted by
samch
July 01, 2010 at 20:50
Forcing young people (or anyone else, for that matter) to worship a God that they do not believe in is simply an abuse of their human rights.
Moreover, schools could fill this precious time with far more useful activities (extra exercise, ethical discussions, extra literacy or numeracy) to name but a few.
Moreover, schools could fill this precious time with far more useful activities (extra exercise, ethical discussions, extra literacy or numeracy) to name but a few.
Posted by
paritosh
July 01, 2010 at 20:55
Religious worship should have no place in state schools. The current law requiring state schools to hold a daily act of christian worship is, and has been unworkable. I ran a secondary school for 12 years until 1996 and was never able to deliver what the law requires in any meaningful way. I am not a christian, I guess that a few of the staff were but none of them wanted to lead such an act with pupils who came from homes where less than 10% , we are told, are regular attenders at church. This situation is impossible for schools to manage which is why so many ignore the law and ofsted wastes much time in inspecting and reporting on the requirement. It is time to abolish this once and for all.
Posted by
bramblejam
July 01, 2010 at 21:28
We don't want forced prayer and we don't want creationism taught in Science lessons. Have some respect for all the millions of Humanist and Atheist taxpayers who would much rather have the money spent on Maths and Science, which the country really needs.
Posted by
SusieS
July 01, 2010 at 21:46
Paritosh (see above) hits the nail on the head. The law is neither desirable, nor workable.
Posted by
heggywyatt
July 01, 2010 at 22:39
good to see people are thinking a lot about this. as has already been said, assemblies are useful to bring a school or age-group together, but religion has no place there unless it is being used as part of an education in comparative philosophies/beliefs adopted by different cultures.
Posted by
ceric
July 01, 2010 at 22:46
The idea of "compulsory worship" is so anachronistic that it should not be necessary to comment. But the fact that it is the law makes comment compulsory.
In modern Britain, with its plurality of beliefs (Christian, Muslim, Hindu, atheist, etc.), it is totally inappropriate to impose any religious act on any child.
This law should be scrapped without delay.
Assemblies should be used for purely secular collective purposes. Religion (or lack of it) is private - between an individual and their god (or lack of one).
In modern Britain, with its plurality of beliefs (Christian, Muslim, Hindu, atheist, etc.), it is totally inappropriate to impose any religious act on any child.
This law should be scrapped without delay.
Assemblies should be used for purely secular collective purposes. Religion (or lack of it) is private - between an individual and their god (or lack of one).
Posted by
markb
July 01, 2010 at 22:51
It is time this law was abolished.
Unbelievable that schools have to try to find a way to impose a Christian act of worship on a varied, mixed group of children, somehting which is extremely undesirable to most schools.
Unbelievable that our children should have their rights so flagrantly abused!
It is well time this law went.
Unbelievable that schools have to try to find a way to impose a Christian act of worship on a varied, mixed group of children, somehting which is extremely undesirable to most schools.
Unbelievable that our children should have their rights so flagrantly abused!
It is well time this law went.
Posted by
dsed
July 01, 2010 at 22:57
Religious observance should ALWAYS be a choice; NEVER a requirement for anyone, anywhere It should especially not be required of children who are not after all being asked; they are being told to engage in a belief ritual by authority figures they are encouraged to respect. they are being forced to profess a belief in something they have neither the judgment, the breadth of information, nor the authority to refuse.
This is monstrous. It is especially so for a government to require such observance to be within a specific religious framework. The law is primitive, arrogant and offends the rights to religious freedom for everyone -- and flies in the face of the support of a diverse, inclusive and tolerant society. It very specifically, inexcusably and actively discriminates against secular humanists, who form a very large part of British society, and whose ranks include some of our most notable citizens, both past and present: famous scientists, cultural figures and the thinkers and leaders that have helped to form the backbone of British life and culture.
It offends the rights of children everywhere to be forced to conform to anyone's existential mythology; and reflect very badly indeed on the adults who have proposed, who have passed and who continue to maintain and support this primitive law.
This is monstrous. It is especially so for a government to require such observance to be within a specific religious framework. The law is primitive, arrogant and offends the rights to religious freedom for everyone -- and flies in the face of the support of a diverse, inclusive and tolerant society. It very specifically, inexcusably and actively discriminates against secular humanists, who form a very large part of British society, and whose ranks include some of our most notable citizens, both past and present: famous scientists, cultural figures and the thinkers and leaders that have helped to form the backbone of British life and culture.
It offends the rights of children everywhere to be forced to conform to anyone's existential mythology; and reflect very badly indeed on the adults who have proposed, who have passed and who continue to maintain and support this primitive law.
Posted by
aleks
July 01, 2010 at 23:01
i don't want my 4 year old to start praying at school this September - i'd love to see this horrid practice abolished before i start having to exclude her from assemblies.
give the atheists the right to not waste their tax money on religion in education!
give the atheists the right to not waste their tax money on religion in education!
Posted by
TStevenson
July 02, 2010 at 00:13
Absolutely vital that this is carried
Posted by
DavidEwart
July 02, 2010 at 00:18
This would be a great start to the Government's actions. I hope it doesn't get swamped by all the other pressing problems of the day.
Posted by
tomtrainer
July 02, 2010 at 00:44
Abolish indoctrination in schools. Let's leave the teaching of magic for Horgwarts.
Posted by
mdwh
July 02, 2010 at 01:52
It also seems inconsistent to have a law requiring "Christian" worship, then say that faith schools don't have to follow that, as long as they worship something else. And see http://www.guardian.co.uk/[…]/schools.faithschools - a headmaster tried to set up a secular school, arguing under the same exception as faith schools. Yet he wasn't allowed!
System32: "No state schools engage in compulsary religious worship anymore."
Nonsense, both the state schools I went to had compulsory religious worship, prayers, hymns and preaching. Even in schools where it doesn't happen, the existence of the law means that any teacher who decides he's going to use the assembly to preach has the law on his side.
But even if what you said was true - what's the point of the law? If no one follows it, that's all the more reason to repeal it! It's unnecessary.
Tom: "Which schools force compulsory religious worship? My wife's school certainly doesn't."
So because your wife's school doesn't do this, you suggest the person is making this law up, or that no schools follow it? See http://www.humanism.org.uk/[…]/worship-your-rights for details on the laws that cover this.
System32: "No state schools engage in compulsary religious worship anymore."
Nonsense, both the state schools I went to had compulsory religious worship, prayers, hymns and preaching. Even in schools where it doesn't happen, the existence of the law means that any teacher who decides he's going to use the assembly to preach has the law on his side.
But even if what you said was true - what's the point of the law? If no one follows it, that's all the more reason to repeal it! It's unnecessary.
Tom: "Which schools force compulsory religious worship? My wife's school certainly doesn't."
So because your wife's school doesn't do this, you suggest the person is making this law up, or that no schools follow it? See http://www.humanism.org.uk/[…]/worship-your-rights for details on the laws that cover this.
Posted by
AdeyS
July 02, 2010 at 02:58
Indoctrination, pure and simple. There should be no religion in schools.
Posted by
bohanna
July 02, 2010 at 03:23
And while we're at it... Faith Schools are an affront to reason and the rights of the child. They should all be abolished as soon as possible. Naturally it won't happen (yet) because the religious make sure that they are over represented in government, schools, the legal system, the BBC, the army, our schools etc. etc. A massive majority of primary school teachers are religious, way out of proportion to the population as a whole. The situation is very similar when it comes to MP's, either they are religious nuts or too scared to stand up for secular values.
Posted by
CM
July 02, 2010 at 03:43
I find it odd that Science must be taught alongside Religion. With Science they are taught to be rational, logical and able to look at things analytically. However with Religion they are told to just accept what is given to them. We should be training our children to question the world around them, not just accept it for what it is.
Posted by
ebfarrow
July 02, 2010 at 03:46
Agree. I grew up in Britain learning about and making observations on our society, coming to a strong conclusion that it is in fact a plural society which many people of different race, ethnicity, class, culture and also religion (including the irreligious). I'm grateful that our system is indeed not as bad as the USA, however we still have the archaic laws that are tucked away that need to be repealed. This is one of them.
Posted by
boggis
July 02, 2010 at 06:23
State approved indoctrination of children must stop, accross the board, if we are to have any hope of positive development for the future.
Posted by
MarkPaling
July 02, 2010 at 06:29
It is simply wrong that in an open society with a broadly positive education system that our children are force fed this stuff, made even more incredible when parents have little control over it. Force feeding religion in schools must stop.
Posted by
jackharr
July 02, 2010 at 06:29
Embarrassing ritual and inappropriate in a secular age.
Posted by
OLDCHICKEN
July 02, 2010 at 06:36
Agree, I would also go further by banning state funding for all types of religious school and I would want state schools to ban staff and pupils from wearing any form of religious dress or displaying any overt religious symbol whilst at school.
Posted by
melsj
July 02, 2010 at 06:47
Agree, also agree with those who want to see faith schools abolished.
Posted by
cpickard
July 02, 2010 at 06:51
Quite agree. I get frustrated when my 7 year old daughter comes home with the idea that to make something happen you have to pray for it. I hate attending school assemblies only to be expected to 'join in the prayer' (which I don't). I tell her that praying is just like wishing, it doesn't make something happen. Only she can make something happen by what she does (working hard, being kind etc). There are Sunday schools for this sort of thing if people think that this brainwashing is what they want for their kids. It shouldn't be allowed in main stream schools. Morals are morals to Christians and atheists. Do something because its the right thing to do, not because it gets you a golden ticket into heaven!
Posted by
RobinNorton
July 02, 2010 at 06:57
This law only works in the interest of the Church of England. Only 7% of Britons are regular Church-goers.
Think of the time and energy we waste as a nation on this law.
It is unethical, inefficient and dangerous.
It is also not complied with!
The very existence of this law suggests that Christianity has a monopoly on spirituality and collective activity. This is absolutely NOT the case in our society and I do not want my children growing up with the state telling them that is the case!
Think of the time and energy we waste as a nation on this law.
It is unethical, inefficient and dangerous.
It is also not complied with!
The very existence of this law suggests that Christianity has a monopoly on spirituality and collective activity. This is absolutely NOT the case in our society and I do not want my children growing up with the state telling them that is the case!
Posted by
Lesleyah
July 02, 2010 at 07:13
Getting everyone in a school together as a community is a good idea. Forcing them to worship is not. Please scrap this law.
Posted by
lindsay
July 02, 2010 at 07:44
Assemblies are a good idea but collective worship restricts freedom of religion - freedom NOT to have a religion and freedom NOT to be a christian.
It als teaches children all sorts of unhelpful and scary things at a very vulnerable age e.g praying is a good way of getting things you want, god is everywhere watching you (my daughter (4) found this terrifying), the idea that you should believe in something for which there is no evidence.
They are too young certainly under the age of about 10 to interpret religion. It is just brainwashing.
It als teaches children all sorts of unhelpful and scary things at a very vulnerable age e.g praying is a good way of getting things you want, god is everywhere watching you (my daughter (4) found this terrifying), the idea that you should believe in something for which there is no evidence.
They are too young certainly under the age of about 10 to interpret religion. It is just brainwashing.
Posted by
ginestre
July 02, 2010 at 07:49
Many schools try to become more inclusive of all children by reducing or eliminating 'worship' of a particular brand from their assemblies- but they are technically in breach of this stupid law. There should be no space in schools for the peddling of one particular brand of religious thought over another, and so this law should GO.
Posted by
StephenRD
July 02, 2010 at 07:58
I think that collective worship (particularly when it is mandated that it be broadly Christian) is something totally inappropriate, amounting to state indoctrination.
But I also return to the remit: "...too many nannying, unnecessary rules restrict freedom and make criminals out of ordinary people. We need to root through the laws of our land, identify anything which looks unnecessary, pointless, or just downright daft, and ask – are these necessary?"
Looking at that list, this law is nannying, unnecessary, restricts freedom, makes criminals out of teachers who decline to obey, is unnecessary, pointless, daft, and (for the third time) unnecessary. Yep, ticks all the boxes.
But I also return to the remit: "...too many nannying, unnecessary rules restrict freedom and make criminals out of ordinary people. We need to root through the laws of our land, identify anything which looks unnecessary, pointless, or just downright daft, and ask – are these necessary?"
Looking at that list, this law is nannying, unnecessary, restricts freedom, makes criminals out of teachers who decline to obey, is unnecessary, pointless, daft, and (for the third time) unnecessary. Yep, ticks all the boxes.
Posted by
StewartLever
July 02, 2010 at 08:02
I absolutely agree....I bet it would save a lot of money too
Posted by
rogerf
July 02, 2010 at 08:09
I agree entirely. Pity the suggestion is so badly formulated
Posted by
mchannell
July 02, 2010 at 08:09
Forums and assemblies to promote wide ranging social issues should replace pointless religious ramblings. This law should go
Posted by
SteveEvans
July 02, 2010 at 08:11
My daughter believes in God. She's 6. I'm an atheist, so she's not heard any of it from me.
Being 6 she believes completely anything that she is taught at school. Being 6 she can barely separate fact from fiction... and of course they're not told that the bible is fiction.
Being 6 she believes completely anything that she is taught at school. Being 6 she can barely separate fact from fiction... and of course they're not told that the bible is fiction.
Posted by
D_Wybrow
July 02, 2010 at 08:12
I agree with this submission completely. Children should be given the freedom to develop their own beliefs, and not be forced in any particular direction.
Posted by
pluton
July 02, 2010 at 08:16
This law needs to go. It is indoctrination. Children should be allowed to make their own mind up. Morals, Ethics and responsible citizenship should be taught. should be
Posted by
rpstevenson
July 02, 2010 at 08:18
Collective worship appalled me as child, since I considered that it ran roughshod over my own beliefs. I find it even more appalling that it still exists today. It is a sinister attempt to indoctrinate children into thinking that a certain belief system is inherently more valid than all others which is disgusting. Stop this.
Posted by
jsinclair
July 02, 2010 at 08:23
Agreed
Posted by
morleyboy100
July 02, 2010 at 08:25
i dont agree with forcing anyone to worship but i do agree with religion in schools, i believe christian values are important to a healthy society sadly over the last few decades this have been forgotten and we are seeing a breakdown in society.
Posted by
lnixon
July 02, 2010 at 08:32
Our state schools should not be used to peddle religious doctrine of any kind. How does the saying go? "You don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church."
Force-feeding religion to children is abusive and undermines their right to develop their own ideas.
Everyone has the right to a personal religious belief if they choose it freely. But we need to stamp heavily on this perceived right of the religious to influence the lives of others, whether it's through education or through the administration of government and law.
Force-feeding religion to children is abusive and undermines their right to develop their own ideas.
Everyone has the right to a personal religious belief if they choose it freely. But we need to stamp heavily on this perceived right of the religious to influence the lives of others, whether it's through education or through the administration of government and law.
Posted by
dpurnell
July 02, 2010 at 08:32
This law is ludicrous and should have been scrapped decades ago - how can you force children to pray to gods they don't believe in? My 11 year old and his friends currently have to sit through happy clappy beardy vicars with jumpers who make full use of this law to infiltrate schools. Fortunately the kids merely treat it as yet another irritation which grown-ups force on them, but the fact that they have the legal right is outrageous. And note, this is not a church school. We deliberately avoided the local C of E-tied schools, but as the laws stands we still can't avoid this rubbish.
Posted by
JohnCatt
July 02, 2010 at 08:35
Compulsory worship is a contradiction in terms.
Posted by
ProfPaulBraterman
July 02, 2010 at 08:39
A baseless anachronism, insulting to believer and non-believer alike, and intrinsically ethnically divisive.
Posted by
merrkix
July 02, 2010 at 08:39
I could not agree more, we should not be indoctrinating our children! We should aim for society to be more secular and not force beliefs onto anyone, especially onto impressionable young people.
Posted by
ijmcpu
July 02, 2010 at 08:43
I must mention - although I completely agree with its scrapping - that Ofsted reported over 3/4 of schools do not hold collective worship. 3/4 is almost the entirety of non-faith schools in this country.
Posted by
dotdotuk
July 02, 2010 at 08:43
Schools should not be allowed to indocrinate children. Comparative religion should be taught rather than a particular religious viewpoint.
There should never be a religious element to school assenblies.
There should never be a religious element to school assenblies.
Posted by
jgw321
July 02, 2010 at 08:48
Teach children how to think, don't tell them what to think.
JG
JG
Posted by
Mutsumi
July 02, 2010 at 08:50
When was this law forcing worship introduced, and does it apply to both primary and secondary schools? In primary school we had hymns and the Lord's Prayer, but nothing like this happened when I was at secondary school and there was no worship, though there were assemblies in various subjects, none of which were worship.
Posted by
jleith
July 02, 2010 at 08:58
Religion should be kept out of all taxpayer-funded schools until the age of 11 or higher, when teaching reasoning minds about religion can begin.
Posted by
nshamid
July 02, 2010 at 09:03
collective worship should NEVER be enforced.
Posted by
RuthFrost
July 02, 2010 at 09:08
Collective worship in schools doesn't force children to pray, the legislation says that children should be given a chance to consider an issue, that is sometimes of a broadly Christian nature (e.g. forgiveness, helping others, looking after the weakest in society - all very important issues for our society) and then reflect upon it. They should not be forced to pray or to sing hymns or anything else like that if the legislation is being carried out correctly, but they should have the chance to - it is a good thing to teach our children that they can make decisions about what they think and what they do. Collective worship is important in our schools, as it gives pupils the opportunity to be together corporately and consider issues that will help them to develop as responsible citizens, adults of the future and members of a society that understands and considers others - to take collective worship out of schools would be a real shame for our children.
Posted by
james7270
July 02, 2010 at 09:09
Maintaining this law means limiting children's freedom of thought for another generation. We are lucky to live in a society where fundamentalists have little influence. But if we institutionalise faith, we give responsibility for the direction of society to unelected, uncontrolled religion. Look how that's working in parts of the USA, central Africa.
Posted by
SciFiBoy
July 02, 2010 at 09:11
definitley, we should have full seperation of church and state imo, its a multi-cultural country and we need to acknowledge that. forcing people to take part or schools to force them to take part in a religious worship that they dont follow is vile, especially as these are just children.
Posted by
JasonBBG
July 02, 2010 at 09:13
is not a referendum the best way to decide this? the current rule assumes too many things:
that christianity is 'best'; that it's ok to enforce 1 belief on children with all types of beliefs; that children even have to have a belief; non-belief in God, but sound morals and ethics 'isn't good enough' etc etc
that christianity is 'best'; that it's ok to enforce 1 belief on children with all types of beliefs; that children even have to have a belief; non-belief in God, but sound morals and ethics 'isn't good enough' etc etc
Posted by
anataboga
July 02, 2010 at 09:14
Excellent idea - lets teach children how to think not what to think!
Posted by
mike_fernlea
July 02, 2010 at 09:16
If the Conservatives and Lid Dems truly believe in choice, why not make Collective Worship and RE Opt in rather than opt out?
Posted by
zkirkor
July 02, 2010 at 09:18
Dear Ruthfrost, the issues like forgiveness, helping others etc have nothing to do with christianity. Theses are universal, human values. Collective worship has nothing to do with being together corporately. We don't start our work with collective worship. Why our children have to??? Besides, I think that for true believer worships is very personal and private act.
Collective worship should be withdrawn from schools asap and we should respect young people's right to decide.
Collective worship should be withdrawn from schools asap and we should respect young people's right to decide.
Posted by
rainbow
July 02, 2010 at 09:19
Totally agree.. It should be scrapped.. For little children this is like a brainwash that can have an impact on their judgement over their entire lives.
Posted by
petersbj
July 02, 2010 at 09:25
All inclusive secular assemblies are a better alternative contributing to well being and development without forcing young people to pray or worship in ways that do not respect their right to freedom from religious belief.
Posted by
lac
July 02, 2010 at 09:34
A totally counterproductive, outdated law that lives on in a pluralistic society. Young children believe most things they are told and this law amounts to brainwashing.
Posted by
stevenjl
July 02, 2010 at 09:35
Absolutely agree. why should religions effectively force their views on children. Abolish this law.
Posted by
Newbloke
July 02, 2010 at 09:37
Don't we understand that it is badly harmful and very unfair to bring up children with untruths and non-sense?
Posted by
gcygnus
July 02, 2010 at 09:40
We oppose cults that 'brainwash' our children.
How does collective worship differ to that?
Let our children make their own minds up!
How does collective worship differ to that?
Let our children make their own minds up!
Posted by
rogerpope
July 02, 2010 at 09:41
Totally Agree - schooling is supposed to be about learning - best not to start the day with a bit of brainwashing!
Posted by
mexikoi
July 02, 2010 at 09:44
I think the idea should read 'taught objectively' and I think Ruth Jones' comment sums up why it is a bad thing -
'... the legislation says that children should be given a chance to consider an issue, that is sometimes of a broadly Christian nature (e.g. forgiveness, helping others, looking after the weakest in society - all very important issues for our society) and then reflect upon it. ...'
It could equally be argued that such issues are humanist in nature - they are not the sole preserve of Christinality or any other religion and children should not be told that they are.
My four year old goes to a C of E primary and I don't like the amount of religious content that she is exposed to in assembly. Keeping your child out of assembly isn't the answer - I think assembly is important but religion (any religion) has no place therein.
'... the legislation says that children should be given a chance to consider an issue, that is sometimes of a broadly Christian nature (e.g. forgiveness, helping others, looking after the weakest in society - all very important issues for our society) and then reflect upon it. ...'
It could equally be argued that such issues are humanist in nature - they are not the sole preserve of Christinality or any other religion and children should not be told that they are.
My four year old goes to a C of E primary and I don't like the amount of religious content that she is exposed to in assembly. Keeping your child out of assembly isn't the answer - I think assembly is important but religion (any religion) has no place therein.
Posted by
Inka
July 02, 2010 at 09:49
brilliant idea, children should be exposed to moral teaching not religious dogma
Posted by
AJShepherd
July 02, 2010 at 09:51
I completely agree and support this idea. Introduce children to the idea of freedom of choice and that responsibility the earlier the better.
Posted by
L010803
July 02, 2010 at 10:05
I completely agree. This is long overdue.
Posted by
bwyatt
July 02, 2010 at 10:07
I had to pray and sing hymns in my primary school but thankfully I have the ability to make up my own mind and I'm entirely Atheist. I agree this should be changed though, if it's not a CoE school (or religious school) then it should be excluded from these types of activities.
Posted by
gforsyth
July 02, 2010 at 10:08
Absolutely. Parents can lie to their kids about sky pixies but the state shouldn't.
Posted by
neild5
July 02, 2010 at 10:10
I agree completely.
Posted by
tayloran9
July 02, 2010 at 10:23
There should be no state sponsored indoctrination whatsoever of our children. There is no benefit to the children or society as a whole for kids to chant prayers like a robot. It only serves to appease those who feel our religious heritage and traditions should be upheld without question. Lets raise our children to be sensible and thoughtful and questioning. This law illustrates that Church state seperation is a must.
Posted by
emvee
July 02, 2010 at 10:30
Totally agree. Let's scrap faith schools too.
Posted by
gordonogilvie
July 02, 2010 at 10:35
Couldn't agree more. Compulsory worship of any kind in schools infringes on the freedom of both pupils and teachers -- and is an affront to reason.
Posted by
Dorsetblogger
July 02, 2010 at 10:38
This is such an important topic. we will only move forward as a society if we remove anything that inhibits the ability to think for oneself. Indoctrination has no place in state-sponsored education. The minds of the next generation are too important to allow them to be damaged in this way.
Posted by
CarlPierce
July 02, 2010 at 10:40
It is wrong for the state to insist on the promotion of a particular faith. This is a throw-back to an earlier age. Schools collective assembly should be inclusive and about simply good moral values not superstition. When I was at school I decided to exclude myself from forced indoctrination but in practice despite a letter from parents the teachers pretty much insisted I attended. I have fond memorys of teachers punching children in the back if they didn't sing.
Posted by
Freethinker
July 02, 2010 at 10:41
Section 406 of the Education Act 1996 forbids political indoctrination in schools yet Sections 375 to 399 actively encourage religious indoctrination.
This double set of standards should be ended by repealing Part V, Chapter III (Religious Education and Worship) [Sections 375 to 399 inclusive] and all preceding legislation/regulations.
Britain today is a modern secular and multicultural society, where religion and other forms of superstitious or irrational forms of thinking have no part to play in the education of our young people.
This double set of standards should be ended by repealing Part V, Chapter III (Religious Education and Worship) [Sections 375 to 399 inclusive] and all preceding legislation/regulations.
Britain today is a modern secular and multicultural society, where religion and other forms of superstitious or irrational forms of thinking have no part to play in the education of our young people.
Posted by
GarethR
July 02, 2010 at 10:48
When my young son came home from school chanting "Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Praise 'er Claude!" it struck me how very wrong it is to inflict an 'act of praise' on children, when they don't even understand what they are saying!
Posted by
DPF
July 02, 2010 at 10:55
Couldn't agree more with this one.
I approve wholeheartedly of RE lessons, which should teach children in an unbiased way to understand and respect all faiths (which should include atheism).
However collective daily worship which is "broadly Christian in nature" has no place in a secular school in a secular society.
I approve wholeheartedly of RE lessons, which should teach children in an unbiased way to understand and respect all faiths (which should include atheism).
However collective daily worship which is "broadly Christian in nature" has no place in a secular school in a secular society.
Posted by
PeterSilverman
July 02, 2010 at 10:56
Children should not be indoctrinated with religous ideas at school but should be left to make up their own minds later in life.
Posted by
MrsArcanum
July 02, 2010 at 10:59
Compulsory worship is tantamount to state sponsored discrimination. Children are very sensitive about missing out on things so being obliged to exclude them from assembly because the religion being promoted does not agree with how your child is brought up is unfair.
Religion should only be taught as a subject and should never even be compulsory as a GCSE subject as is now.
We have the ridiculous situation where an Atheist has to learn a Christian part of the bible for GCSE where a Muslim will do an Islamic version.
Religion should only be taught as a subject and should never even be compulsory as a GCSE subject as is now.
We have the ridiculous situation where an Atheist has to learn a Christian part of the bible for GCSE where a Muslim will do an Islamic version.
Posted by
JHayes
July 02, 2010 at 11:01
Education, not indoctrination.
Posted by
Cnorton
July 02, 2010 at 11:03
NO
Don't scrap it, but do reword it. Faith schools should still be required to have collective worship. That is part of their ethos and what distinguishes them from other non faith schools. Non faith schools should have no such requirement.
Don't scrap it, but do reword it. Faith schools should still be required to have collective worship. That is part of their ethos and what distinguishes them from other non faith schools. Non faith schools should have no such requirement.
Posted by
andyandyandy
July 02, 2010 at 11:04
Totally agree. Let's use valuable assembly time to inspire children about what is best with humanity.
This will show that the supernatural beliefs of a human are about as relevant to their humanity as whether or not they like marmite.
This will show that the supernatural beliefs of a human are about as relevant to their humanity as whether or not they like marmite.
Posted by
adiem1975
July 02, 2010 at 11:18
I’d like to see religion taught in the same way that other ancient literature is taught not be indoctrinated.
Posted by
IHopeYouListen
July 02, 2010 at 11:19
The resolution of religious indoctrination which every child must go through can cause an enormous amount of psychological stress. We should enable our children to make as free a choice as possible.
Posted by
tattoojunkie
July 02, 2010 at 11:27
i believe assemblies are a good thing however children should be taught about other faiths in them but not have it forced down their throats and told that one is right over another.so everyone has a chance to learn about everybody elses religion and maybe just maybe the children will grow up of a greater understanding of other people and not ignorance and hatred of people who are different.
Posted by
ILuVManUTd
July 02, 2010 at 11:42
I agree, in primary school I felt like I was being forced to become Christian. Secondary school helped me to see other possibilities and let me choose what I saw right.
Posted by
greenCol9
July 02, 2010 at 11:47
The idea is fine. Let's get rid of superstition and the supernatural from the curriculum and get on with teaching kids to be rational thinkers. Meanwhile please get the spelling right!
Posted by
hreynolds
July 02, 2010 at 11:53
Don't force ideas on children before they are old enough to decide for themselves.
In multicultural areas, forcing collective worship creates division. We should be trying to bring different cultures together, into greater understanding of one another.
In multicultural areas, forcing collective worship creates division. We should be trying to bring different cultures together, into greater understanding of one another.
Posted by
cndack
July 02, 2010 at 12:42
I do hope that this gets passe before my son starts to school. The only primary schools in the area are CofE or private (which I can't afford) and I don't want to be dealing with the hassle of taking him out of assemblies. It's unfair that my son should be excluded when less than 10% of the country are even Christian.
Posted by
johnsibley
July 02, 2010 at 12:45
I agree
Posted by
PeckhamRose
July 02, 2010 at 12:46
School is about education, not indoctrination. I went to science lessons and they'd explain a theory and we'd experiment to prove it, and were told how important evidence was. The next lesson was RI. And they expected us to believe that stuff through faith! And the state paid for this nonsense. Of course the state should not fund schools who indoctrinate children into a religion. It's immoral. Thanks Nick, and I 'believe' you were the only leader who said he did not follow a faith? Off you go.
Posted by
PeckhamRose
July 02, 2010 at 12:46
School is about education, not indoctrination. I went to science lessons and they'd explain a theory and we'd experiment to prove it, and were told how important evidence was. The next lesson was RI. And they expected us to believe that stuff through faith! And the state paid for this nonsense. Of course the state should not fund schools who indoctrinate children into a religion. It's immoral. Thanks Nick, and I 'believe' you were the only leader who said he did not follow a faith? Off you go.
Posted by
happyskepticAl
July 02, 2010 at 12:55
Assemblies should be held, incorporating 'lessons for life', looking at issues which concern young people, giving examples of people who live productive lives and work for the good of society, or who put others before themselves. This doesn't need to be underpinned by religion, which is a mixed bag of good, bad and downright confused. Most of the rules devised by middle eastern tribesmen a couple of thousand years ago, and the arbitrary 'add-ons' since then by the 3 main religions have no relevance to lives today. The underlying idea of being either punished or rewarded in the 'next life', and of a supernatural actually being responsible for everything, is really unhelpful to human development.
Please let's get religion out of schools and public life for good - it serves no useful purpose, and is often divisive.
Secular is the only way to go. Everyone treated equally, no one excluded. No one alienated. If people want religion in their lives, let them follow their chosen (or imposed?) one in private.
Please let's get religion out of schools and public life for good - it serves no useful purpose, and is often divisive.
Secular is the only way to go. Everyone treated equally, no one excluded. No one alienated. If people want religion in their lives, let them follow their chosen (or imposed?) one in private.
Posted by
keastland
July 02, 2010 at 12:55
An act of collective religious worship IS still required by law in all schools - shocking but true. In my view there is no place for organised religion of any denomination in education or in Government.
Posted by
alexbloor
July 02, 2010 at 12:55
It is wholly inappropriate in 2010 to insist on an act of collective worship daily. That and the fact that most schools just ignore the rule anyway suggest the law is stupid and needs to be scrapped.
Posted by
vmilbourne
July 02, 2010 at 13:06
I fully support the idea of scrapping religious assemblies in schools and, further, I am opposed to any religious based education. This is monotheistic indoctrination and is not acceptable in any western democracy, in my opinion. Education should expand minds, not deliberately set out to limit them.
Posted by
MrMarmite
July 02, 2010 at 13:08
agreed. How can we tell our children to learn from the teachers when they are being taught about invisible sky giants as facts.
Posted by
magihall
July 02, 2010 at 13:14
I fully support this. Compulsory religious assemblies are non democratic and infringe the human rights of those families who feel strongly that they do not wish their children to take part in them.
Posted by
magihall
July 02, 2010 at 13:17
I fully support this. Compulsory religious assemblies are non democratic and infringe the human rights of those families who feel strongly that they do not wish their children to take part.
Posted by
christopher
July 02, 2010 at 13:23
To those who think this law isn't true -
http://www.westsussex.gov.uk/[…]/sacre180607i7secsch.pdf
It is the law that state schools practice collective worship “wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character.”
My school had an excellent ofsted report (when I was there) and only fell down because it did not obey this law.
http://www.westsussex.gov.uk/[…]/sacre180607i7secsch.pdf
It is the law that state schools practice collective worship “wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character.”
My school had an excellent ofsted report (when I was there) and only fell down because it did not obey this law.
Posted by
theoldtrout
July 02, 2010 at 13:24
I support this. We should be teaching children how to think for themselves not filling their heads mumbo-jumbo.
Posted by
DavidB
July 02, 2010 at 13:26
I'm for removing as many state regulations on Schools as possible so this one can go too, as long as "surely assemblies about moral issues would be more appropriate and inclusive." this is not turned from one mandatory lecture to another.
Posted by
timpj
July 02, 2010 at 13:26
This is not "almost" indoctrination: it is indoctrination - period.
Posted by
SadlerJohnson
July 02, 2010 at 13:40
The right to freedom of speech comes with responsibility. The right to freedom of and from belief comes with responsibility. Schools are responsible for the well-being of children not for indoctrinating them into medieval belief system that slams the door on rational and considered thinking and learning. Assembly is not the place for collective worship - church, synagogue, mosque or coven is more appropriate. Comparative Religion should be relegated to History or Social Studies classes.
Posted by
frances
July 02, 2010 at 13:44
Let's have a society of mutual respect where we can each choose whether or not to practice a religion (and if we choose to practice a religion, let us be able to choose which one it is). It should be a personal and private choice, not dictated by law.
I would certainly prefer to see inclusive, secular assemblies where all children and teachers can feel involved, regardless of their religion, or lack thereof.
I would certainly prefer to see inclusive, secular assemblies where all children and teachers can feel involved, regardless of their religion, or lack thereof.
Posted by
Darwin
July 02, 2010 at 14:17
if you want to be religious then that is up to you , but do it in your own time and at your own expense, do not waste valuable school time with this nonsense
Posted by
xavec
July 02, 2010 at 14:20
Completely agree. School should be about boradening the mind and encouraging investigation, rationality and discussion. Assemblies introduciong ideas of tolerance, compassion, forgiveness and community spirit are more than possible without also asking children to believe in fairy stories.
Posted by
bscotford
July 02, 2010 at 14:20
What a splendid and well-supported idea. Do we really want our children to be forced to "pay homage or reverence to a deity"?
Posted by
SM1
July 02, 2010 at 14:26
Unfortunately Religious organisations have long since realised they need to recruit young minds while they are still incapable of truly independent thought. It is frankly criminal to abuse Children by 'brainwashing' them before they are able to rationalise what is being said to them. I am all in favour of exploring with children what 'faith' is and the variety of beliefs and views held (including non religious viewpoints) but the state sponsored spoon feeding of a Religious belief to our children is sickening.
Posted by
Vincent
July 02, 2010 at 14:32
Collective Worship draws people together, and acknowledges our common humanity. Of course, some parents fear that their children may be exposed to belief systems that take them outside of their parents' attempts at mind-control - but surely we shoudl encourage our children to be free-thinking, and providing the opportunity for prayer, reflection and worship at school surely encourages this.
Posted by
rdunster
July 02, 2010 at 14:39
Schools should be entirely secular. The teaching of any religious belief, in any way, shape or form is an abuse.
Schools should teach facts, and encourage rational, critical thinking.
And yes, this precludes, entirely, all 'faith based' schools.
'Accept nothing on Authority'
Schools should teach facts, and encourage rational, critical thinking.
And yes, this precludes, entirely, all 'faith based' schools.
'Accept nothing on Authority'
Posted by
SM1
July 02, 2010 at 14:42
That completely misses the point.......yes children should be free thinking and great teachers develop that skill where they can.....teaching/preaching them a belief system is the antithesis of free thinking..........it's brainwashing......
Posted by
biblewinsciencefail
July 02, 2010 at 14:42
This entire thread is fundamentally flawed. Why should athiest beliefs be forced on kids from Christian families in state schools? The hypocrisy demonstrated here by louise almond is world class.
The 1944 Education Act states that all schools must have a broadly Christian act of collective worship. Sadly headteachers who do not ensure this takes place are rarely prosecuted for failing to do their legal duty.
People can not be forced to believe anything, so hopeless athiests have little to worry about. Good Christian assemblies instill moral values. Other religions can hold concurrent assemblies in other school rooms. Moral relativism is a highway to destruction. Biblical standards need to be enforced. Sadly schools and society are declining rapidly as the UK deliberately walks away from the standards of God. Everyone should keep the 10 commandments.
Athiest moral relativism led to the holocaust and the shooting of aboriginies. Darwin & Galton lead to National Socialism. In a religion free world North Korea would still menace South. The Christian religion is the solution, not the problem.
Thanks for reading. Visit Biblewinsciencefail@youtube.
The 1944 Education Act states that all schools must have a broadly Christian act of collective worship. Sadly headteachers who do not ensure this takes place are rarely prosecuted for failing to do their legal duty.
People can not be forced to believe anything, so hopeless athiests have little to worry about. Good Christian assemblies instill moral values. Other religions can hold concurrent assemblies in other school rooms. Moral relativism is a highway to destruction. Biblical standards need to be enforced. Sadly schools and society are declining rapidly as the UK deliberately walks away from the standards of God. Everyone should keep the 10 commandments.
Athiest moral relativism led to the holocaust and the shooting of aboriginies. Darwin & Galton lead to National Socialism. In a religion free world North Korea would still menace South. The Christian religion is the solution, not the problem.
Thanks for reading. Visit Biblewinsciencefail@youtube.
Posted by
esuidt
July 02, 2010 at 14:46
I couldn't agree more. We need to bring up children with the ability to think for themselves and reach their own conclusions based on reason, logic, and evidence. Indoctrination is child abuse.
Posted by
buttoneer
July 02, 2010 at 14:48
I still remember, from my primary school years, the boy who had to go to the back of the assembly room and do something else while we all had our collective worship, because he was Jewish.
Insensitive little brat that I was, I felt for him.
No doubt there were plenty of other non-Christian parents in the school who weren't happy about their children being taught that one someone else's religious belief was the absolute truth but who did not want their child to be singled out for exclusion either.
Since then, the world has changed and Christian belief in this country has declined dramatically, but the law has not changed and has become increasingly inappropriate.
There is now no majority religion in this country, and that includes the Christian religion.
Our schools should reflect this, and should respect the diversity of beliefs (and of non-religious philosophies such as humanism) by teaching children about that diversity, and of the dominant religions and philosophies that make it up, not by indoctrinating children in one religion.
Insensitive little brat that I was, I felt for him.
No doubt there were plenty of other non-Christian parents in the school who weren't happy about their children being taught that one someone else's religious belief was the absolute truth but who did not want their child to be singled out for exclusion either.
Since then, the world has changed and Christian belief in this country has declined dramatically, but the law has not changed and has become increasingly inappropriate.
There is now no majority religion in this country, and that includes the Christian religion.
Our schools should reflect this, and should respect the diversity of beliefs (and of non-religious philosophies such as humanism) by teaching children about that diversity, and of the dominant religions and philosophies that make it up, not by indoctrinating children in one religion.
Posted by
shrugs
July 02, 2010 at 15:04
@Biblewinsciencefail, a secular school system would simply involved teaching facts, not reinforcing the christian belief that there is a God, but not reinforcing the atheist belief that there isn't either. It really is that simple.
Posted by
Smeggypants
July 02, 2010 at 15:20
I support this and added same as a suggestion last night
Posted by
meself
July 02, 2010 at 15:24
@Biblewinsciencefail, the flaws of your "argument" are breathtaking. Atheists don't hold beliefs per se, but rather the lack of them. Hence, they don't have a belief system to impose. You then proceed with an asinine diatribe which attempts to rewrite history to fit with your biased religious view. The basic moral is that atheism teaches one how to think, whereas religious nonsense insists on teaching what to think.
Posted by
bigjohn
July 02, 2010 at 15:30
If collective worship is scrapped, it will be another erroneus step in eroding this country's heritage. The voice of atheism should not prevail over the voice of religion.
The Christian basis of so much that is good in our legal system must not be forgotten, nor discarded.
The Christian basis of so much that is good in our legal system must not be forgotten, nor discarded.
Posted by
adgec
July 02, 2010 at 15:31
I pray that enforced worship is abolished in schools. What would Jesus say about it after all? He would say something in arabic that I wouldn't understand. Need I say more?
Posted by
PhunkyPhig
July 02, 2010 at 15:31
Completely agree. Any state school should be prevented from promoting any one religion or religious practise.
Private schools will argue that they can do what they like.
But promoting a single religion in school is, by definition, divisive, and teaching kids compassion is easier if you don't confuse it with US / THEM issues. Simple don't promote a single religion in school (teach about all world religions).
Private schools will argue that they can do what they like.
But promoting a single religion in school is, by definition, divisive, and teaching kids compassion is easier if you don't confuse it with US / THEM issues. Simple don't promote a single religion in school (teach about all world religions).
Posted by
smashthestate
July 02, 2010 at 15:39
Education should be secular.
Posted by
Streona
July 02, 2010 at 15:49
Schools should be entirely secular and should not select either pupils nor staff by reference to their religion, how many times they went to church etc.
It would not be acceptable in any other service or walk of life and yet we condone it in education of our children from 5 years old.
It is divisive and churches have abused their privileged position for far too long. If a local authority school will not accept my son I want a full refund of all the Council Tax I have ever paid.
Compulsory collective worship however is a very efficient way of making religion deeply unatractive to children, especially if led by teachers with speech impediment and uncontrollable tics (as was my own experience).
Then there might be less wars.
It would not be acceptable in any other service or walk of life and yet we condone it in education of our children from 5 years old.
It is divisive and churches have abused their privileged position for far too long. If a local authority school will not accept my son I want a full refund of all the Council Tax I have ever paid.
Compulsory collective worship however is a very efficient way of making religion deeply unatractive to children, especially if led by teachers with speech impediment and uncontrollable tics (as was my own experience).
Then there might be less wars.
Posted by
ahloughlin
July 02, 2010 at 15:52
if all education was secular there would be more tolerance in the world and we would have a safer, better world, religion creates bigotry and intolerance, hence the problems we now have now. for christian values, read child abuse, homophobia, and devaluing womens rights.
Posted by
drlake
July 02, 2010 at 15:57
I fully support the removal of collective worship. I do not want to infringe the liberties of others to hold beliefs of their choosing but I do not want my taxes to pay for the promotion of any religion or ideology.
Neither do I want my children to be expected to 'worship' when I am trying to bring them up in a way that encourages them to question, enquire and tolerate difference. If, as adults they choose to become christian, muslim, etc. that is their choice, in the meantime I resent the imposition of any particular belief system on them.
I do think school assemblies can serve a useful purpose and may be useful opportunities to explore and promote positive ethical approaches to living together - this can be done without resort to a specific value set.
As for those who say I can opt my child out of religious assemblies - do you seriously think we should build in exclusion like this? It will feel like being punished for not believing - I find this even more offensive than the current requirement!
Neither do I want my children to be expected to 'worship' when I am trying to bring them up in a way that encourages them to question, enquire and tolerate difference. If, as adults they choose to become christian, muslim, etc. that is their choice, in the meantime I resent the imposition of any particular belief system on them.
I do think school assemblies can serve a useful purpose and may be useful opportunities to explore and promote positive ethical approaches to living together - this can be done without resort to a specific value set.
As for those who say I can opt my child out of religious assemblies - do you seriously think we should build in exclusion like this? It will feel like being punished for not believing - I find this even more offensive than the current requirement!
Posted by
Stottie
July 02, 2010 at 16:03
It'd be nice if schools started from a secular standpoint and taught kids about all religions equally - not making them follow them, but saying things like, "Here are the basics of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc., some people believe X, some people believe Y - what do you think?"
Posted by
nkay
July 02, 2010 at 16:08
I completely agree. Indoctrination has no place in state schools. We need to make state schools secular. Children should learn about religion in an objective, non-biased way and be allowed to decide for themselves what to believe, without being forced by anyone.
Posted by
maverick
July 02, 2010 at 16:25
As an atheist, I feel that preaching to children, even subliminally through songs, is unacceptable. Religion should NOT be delivered as factual in a childs education. I would be happy to see compulsory Religious Education removed, but included in a new curriculum area of 'General Knowledge.' I have no issues with religion covered from the viewpoint of 'some people believe...' Having worked in education for many years, I have NEVER heard atheism mentioned and this is unbalanced.
Posted by
ArtySmokes
July 02, 2010 at 16:29
bigjohn wrote "The voice of atheism should not prevail over the voice of religion."
I disagree. I believe in the teaching of individual thought, not dogma and faith. If anything schools should encourage open-mindedness, or agnosticism. We can follow Judeo-Christian philosophy without having to believe in deities, or Heaven and Hell.
FACT SCHOOLS NOT FAITH SCHOOLS!
I disagree. I believe in the teaching of individual thought, not dogma and faith. If anything schools should encourage open-mindedness, or agnosticism. We can follow Judeo-Christian philosophy without having to believe in deities, or Heaven and Hell.
FACT SCHOOLS NOT FAITH SCHOOLS!
Posted by
nwood
July 02, 2010 at 16:35
The job of subverting children's intelligence by imposing religion on them belongs to the churches, mosques, synagogues and temples, not state-funded schools.
Posted by
BPearce
July 02, 2010 at 17:21
So biblewinsciencefail wants head teachers prosecuted for not obeying this outdated law. Says it all about these bigots who want to keep this archeic legislation. Children should be encouraged to respect all beliefs and non belief. We live in a post Christian society with many belief systems.
Posted by
Robsodav
July 02, 2010 at 17:51
Assemblies are fine but please do not indoctrination children into any religion.
Posted by
Danbo85
July 02, 2010 at 18:08
Indoctrinating children into a religion is child abuse. Chidren must be allowed to form their own beliefs, or more importantly their lack of beliefs with regard to religion. We are a mulicultural secular society, our laws must reflect that and not priviledge any mythical/religious beliefs.
Posted by
nerderello
July 02, 2010 at 18:24
well said "mjadams".
Posted by
supervillan
July 02, 2010 at 18:25
I went through 15 years of catholic indoctrination. It was not education. I became an atheist about two thirds of the way through, once I was old enough to think for myself. I remain an atheist. In a free society all human beings must be free to choose their own faith and beliefs without being allowed to impose those beliefs on others, most especially on minors not yet able to make an informed decision.
Posted by
IrritableOwl
July 02, 2010 at 18:27
Most children in non-faith schools have no Christian tradition. this is a hang over from a bygone age. Britian is a mutli-cultural society and this antiquated law suggests a wholly inappropriate indoctrination. In many schools it is quite hard to find teachers to lead an act of worship of "a broadly Christain character" when no adults believe in god.
Posted by
bodmas
July 02, 2010 at 18:47
Isn't any kind of blind faith completely inconsistent with rational thought? Should we not be teaching our children to think clearly rather than believe something that cannot be proved?
Posted by
JohnRo
July 02, 2010 at 19:07
Religions rely on indoctrination and who better to target than children at an age when their minds are like sponges and absorb information without prejudice.
Posted by
User2
July 02, 2010 at 19:13
I am not religious, but I have a quiet faith in God.
At school I liked morning assembly, we sang hymns, said a prayer, and it was an opportunity for pupils in the choir, or those who played musical instruments, to show us what they could do.
I had a disruptive family life, and would have been scorned if I`d mentioned wanting to go to Sunday School, so I was pleased we had morning assemblies. I found them calming, much better, in my opinion, than getting to school and going straight into the maths lesson.
I think morning assemblies are good for children. When the child reaches adolescence they can choose for themselves whether or not they believe.
At least they will have been given the chance.
At school I liked morning assembly, we sang hymns, said a prayer, and it was an opportunity for pupils in the choir, or those who played musical instruments, to show us what they could do.
I had a disruptive family life, and would have been scorned if I`d mentioned wanting to go to Sunday School, so I was pleased we had morning assemblies. I found them calming, much better, in my opinion, than getting to school and going straight into the maths lesson.
I think morning assemblies are good for children. When the child reaches adolescence they can choose for themselves whether or not they believe.
At least they will have been given the chance.
Posted by
ebooth10
July 02, 2010 at 19:16
as children grow up we teach them the truth...about father christmas and the tooth fairy. teaching religion openly contradicts the ubove. children should be taught to think for themselves. and if in the end they believe in magic then fine. but lets teach TRUTH in schools, not faith and magic.
Posted by
shunt
July 02, 2010 at 19:31
It is not for schools to promote any kind of religious belief above any other.
Posted by
bevsan
July 02, 2010 at 19:44
User2: You have missed the point. Nobody is saying that morning assembly should be stopped. This is only about repealing the law that says every school must hold compulsory christian worship on a daily basis. You can have assemlies without prayer. Faith schools can continue the practice if they wish, but community schools should have the choice.
Posted by
DavidMackenzie
July 02, 2010 at 19:50
Agreed, keep religion out of schools.
Posted by
matthewcgirling
July 02, 2010 at 19:56
I'm not sure many schools do do this anymore, anyway that's not the point is it.
I'm a Christian and I think that "compulsory worship" is harmful to christianity. It's not in the true spirit of Jesus and sometimes (in my childhood experience) the teacher was the last person to show us what the love of God is like.
I'm a Christian and I think that "compulsory worship" is harmful to christianity. It's not in the true spirit of Jesus and sometimes (in my childhood experience) the teacher was the last person to show us what the love of God is like.
Posted by
User2
July 02, 2010 at 20:08
No, bevson, I haven`t missed the point. Our assemblies were for prayer and hymn singin - I think religious assemblies are good. (I know I am in the minority, here. That`s nothing unusual for me!)
Posted by
erica
July 02, 2010 at 20:15
In a country where there is a general striving for inclusion and understanding between differing groups of people, could we please at last recognise that it is entirely possible to live a morally good life without religion and start to include atheist understandings on an equal level. A good start would be to remove the requirement for daily religious worship in schools, it can still be done on a voluntary basis for those who prefer.
Posted by
wiztwas
July 02, 2010 at 20:15
Religion should be for the individual, not the state.
Posted by
robbokris
July 02, 2010 at 21:02
I agree, religious assemblies should not be compulsory, moral issues should be discussed instead, e.g. euthanasia and abortion
Posted by
daveMack
July 02, 2010 at 21:05
Why hasn't secularism in a free country such as ours been achieved yet?
There is no excuse for church to even begin to approach law. We all have the right to freedom of worship, and the freedom not to do so, and with that comes the freedom for those who choose not to worship, not to be affected by those who do.
Any law which attempts to enforce belief in any deity is a flawed one, and one that endangers our personal freedoms. We, as a race, are growing up, and away from a dependence on a god for an explanation for those questions that cannot be readily explained. Those who choose to believe should be absolutely free to do so, but those who choose not to should be protected from those seeking to belittle them or convert them from their choice.
There is no excuse for church to even begin to approach law. We all have the right to freedom of worship, and the freedom not to do so, and with that comes the freedom for those who choose not to worship, not to be affected by those who do.
Any law which attempts to enforce belief in any deity is a flawed one, and one that endangers our personal freedoms. We, as a race, are growing up, and away from a dependence on a god for an explanation for those questions that cannot be readily explained. Those who choose to believe should be absolutely free to do so, but those who choose not to should be protected from those seeking to belittle them or convert them from their choice.
Posted by
juliabichard
July 02, 2010 at 21:32
Agree - religion and the state should be separate.
Posted by
TammyWXX
July 02, 2010 at 21:35
I always hated being preached to at school! I don't beleive in god, but was never given the oportunity to voice this opinion. It is important that children and adults alike are given the oportunity to question beliefs that may have been forced upon them. Collective worship in schools is simply a way for religious groups to re-enforce their views in a way children do not feel able to question.
Posted by
jleith
July 02, 2010 at 21:38
I wholeheartedly agree. I resent the fact that my children, in state schooling, are indoctrinated into such harmful fictions. Yes, I have the option to remove them from assemblies, if I'm willing to ostracise them from their peers.
In this day and age, surely we have reached the point where we no longer need chariots to pull the sun, a fiery place for the naughty and a big beard in the sky to keep us in line?
I heard it said that a four year old is no more a Christian than her his a member of the postal workers union. I like that, but the issue isn't funny. Indoctrination is brainwashing, and it's abuse.
Maybe if we can protect enough children from each generation from these insidious fictions, we might be free of religion all together in a couple of generations!
In this day and age, surely we have reached the point where we no longer need chariots to pull the sun, a fiery place for the naughty and a big beard in the sky to keep us in line?
I heard it said that a four year old is no more a Christian than her his a member of the postal workers union. I like that, but the issue isn't funny. Indoctrination is brainwashing, and it's abuse.
Maybe if we can protect enough children from each generation from these insidious fictions, we might be free of religion all together in a couple of generations!
Posted by
dbsharpe
July 02, 2010 at 21:45
It is a basic human right to be able to choose one's own beliefs as one matures. As schools should teach 'balanced' religious studies, both religious and non religious beliefs, it should not be necessary to then hold an assembly(ies) that is, by structure, similar or the same as a service of one particular belief.
Posted by
pauls43
July 02, 2010 at 22:22
If the Government is serious about civil liberties then this should be scrapped. Religion is a question of personal choice and should not be imposed.
Posted by
HCSmith
July 02, 2010 at 22:36
Here's a few questions for those who support "moral teaching" as an alternative to so called "religious" teaching. Who would decide on the code of morals? Would they be absolute or relative? Perhaps I would disagree with them? Could I exclude my child?
By the way I don't think words like "indoctrination" and "brainwashing" are helpful here. Neither is describing Christian belief as "fiction". This debate needs to be on a non-emotional level.
Children do take things on trust, so if you present them with secularism they will take that on trust. I am sure many people who have made comments here would be happy with that, but many would also see this as inhibiting free thinking. This issue is not straight forward.
By the way I don't think words like "indoctrination" and "brainwashing" are helpful here. Neither is describing Christian belief as "fiction". This debate needs to be on a non-emotional level.
Children do take things on trust, so if you present them with secularism they will take that on trust. I am sure many people who have made comments here would be happy with that, but many would also see this as inhibiting free thinking. This issue is not straight forward.
Posted by
SGAitken
July 02, 2010 at 23:00
Religions and superstitions should have no place in the state and its institutions. This is particularly so when dealing with children. One does not need religion, and all of the supernatural baggage that comes with it, in order to learn morality. Religion is demonstrably man-made, dangerously sexually repressive and distorts the very origins of the cosmos, and should have no place in public life, particularly schools.
Posted by
leroybasslines
July 02, 2010 at 23:20
OK...is this because you all think Christians are stupid 'child abusers' or is because you have a problem with collectivism of any kind? I would even go so far as to say that many of the comments on here are merely atheist versions of the intolerant extremism you are supposedly decrying. It saddens me to the depths of my soul, whatever that is, to hear people spout such hatred and intolerance with so little empathy and compassion for their fellow man.
Essentially, Christianity, at it's core, carries a message of loving and respecting one's fellow human being to the extent that it costs one personally; that one puts others before yourself at all costs. That's how I see it anyway. I know the media and popular impressions are at odds with this, but that is the message that was given in the teachings of Jesus that I have read. Many other religions are built around similar ideas. Yes, people often use religion as a prop for their own intolerance and bigotry and a weapon to be wielded to get their own way, but many of the 'humanist' arguments posted here are doing exactly the same. I think the problem is more to do with ignorance and selfishness than religion. I know many humanists that would be appalled at the bile and spite that is being put forward here.
So drop the sanctimony and try to talk like adults without making prejudices generalisations merely to support your arguments.
I see no harm in collective worship, be it Christian, secular or otherwise. Collectivity is a very desirable condition that is on the decline; to encourage and foster a community spirit in schools is now a very challenging task where it used to be instinctive. For the same reason that I think we should play sport together and sing together, I believe we should think, meditate and worship together and think about how we can become better individuals and better citizens.
Essentially, Christianity, at it's core, carries a message of loving and respecting one's fellow human being to the extent that it costs one personally; that one puts others before yourself at all costs. That's how I see it anyway. I know the media and popular impressions are at odds with this, but that is the message that was given in the teachings of Jesus that I have read. Many other religions are built around similar ideas. Yes, people often use religion as a prop for their own intolerance and bigotry and a weapon to be wielded to get their own way, but many of the 'humanist' arguments posted here are doing exactly the same. I think the problem is more to do with ignorance and selfishness than religion. I know many humanists that would be appalled at the bile and spite that is being put forward here.
So drop the sanctimony and try to talk like adults without making prejudices generalisations merely to support your arguments.
I see no harm in collective worship, be it Christian, secular or otherwise. Collectivity is a very desirable condition that is on the decline; to encourage and foster a community spirit in schools is now a very challenging task where it used to be instinctive. For the same reason that I think we should play sport together and sing together, I believe we should think, meditate and worship together and think about how we can become better individuals and better citizens.
Posted by
MrsArcanum
July 02, 2010 at 23:31
Collective assemblies are fine it is the (broadly Christian) worship aspect that causes the exclusion and division and discriminates against anyone with a different belief system.
We may be stuck with this simply because the Queen is also head of the Church of England. Which then by name discriminates against the Scots, Welsh & Irish.
We may be stuck with this simply because the Queen is also head of the Church of England. Which then by name discriminates against the Scots, Welsh & Irish.
Posted by
nbastone
July 02, 2010 at 23:33
Many schools do not strictly follow this anyway, if no one is obeying it why have it?
Posted by
leroybasslines
July 02, 2010 at 23:49
I'd love to know how many of you are actually talking out of experience of collective worship in schools and how many are using hearsay or simply indulging in a pet theory. I am a primary school teacher in a state school with no religious affiliations. If you sat in every one of our assemblies, you would NEVER see children praying to a Christian god, or any other god for that matter. You may hear the occasional bible story, but you would also hear stories from many traditions and culture. Perhaps more often. You may hear a Christian song like 'This Little Light of Mine', but you'd be more likely to hear 'The Purple People Eater' or 'Bananas in Pyjamas'.
I know that this is pretty typical of schools in my area (South Gloucestershire). What we do in our assemblies is left up to us. I am a Christian, and as a result tend to steer clear of the subject and mainly talk about sportsmanship, resilience and fairness. All of which are part of collective worship. I never pray with the kids - although I often pray for them in my own time and on my own - and never directly talk about my faith. Of course, it comes out in what I say and do because that's what being a Christian is all about. If people don't like that, then they should prevent Christians becoming teachers. I am totally confident that a humanist or a Muslim or a Jehovah's witness or anyone of any spiritual persuasion would have no problem with anything that I or my colleagues say in collective worship.
So, please, if you are serious about this topic - and I believe it to be one worth discussing - do your research and speak to teachers and ask to sit in assemblies in the schools you are talking about. Don't repeat second hand opinion and talk about facts observed.
I know that this is pretty typical of schools in my area (South Gloucestershire). What we do in our assemblies is left up to us. I am a Christian, and as a result tend to steer clear of the subject and mainly talk about sportsmanship, resilience and fairness. All of which are part of collective worship. I never pray with the kids - although I often pray for them in my own time and on my own - and never directly talk about my faith. Of course, it comes out in what I say and do because that's what being a Christian is all about. If people don't like that, then they should prevent Christians becoming teachers. I am totally confident that a humanist or a Muslim or a Jehovah's witness or anyone of any spiritual persuasion would have no problem with anything that I or my colleagues say in collective worship.
So, please, if you are serious about this topic - and I believe it to be one worth discussing - do your research and speak to teachers and ask to sit in assemblies in the schools you are talking about. Don't repeat second hand opinion and talk about facts observed.
Posted by
pwinter
July 02, 2010 at 23:52
It is completly imoral to force children to worship. Allowing their parents to opt out only excludes the children.
Posted by
matthewslyman
July 03, 2010 at 04:02
There are far too many OPINIONATED pigs who are teaching religious education in schools without proper qualifications, and without a real ecumenical approach.
Most people who get the job of "religious and social education teacher" do so because they have strong personal feelings/ opinions on the subject. It's probably the least supervised subject on the school curriculum.
If you think this is offensive, please consider that I am a strongly religious person myself. I was basically persecuted by an ATHEISTIC "religious education" teacher who insisted on lying to my classmates about my personal religious beliefs - he totally misrepresented my religion, and continued doing so after being corrected (with evidence) several times.
This behaviour can really undermine a pupil's respect for their teachers - it can affect your whole outlook on education. It needs to be dealt with.
Most people who get the job of "religious and social education teacher" do so because they have strong personal feelings/ opinions on the subject. It's probably the least supervised subject on the school curriculum.
If you think this is offensive, please consider that I am a strongly religious person myself. I was basically persecuted by an ATHEISTIC "religious education" teacher who insisted on lying to my classmates about my personal religious beliefs - he totally misrepresented my religion, and continued doing so after being corrected (with evidence) several times.
This behaviour can really undermine a pupil's respect for their teachers - it can affect your whole outlook on education. It needs to be dealt with.
Posted by
bigredrock
July 03, 2010 at 08:37
Teaching *about* religion is a good thing.
Forcing children to take part in religious observance they may not understand or believe in is wrong.
Assemblies are great for encouraging a "team spirit" in a school, but worship should not be part of this.
If it must happen at all, religious observance in a school should be self-contained and each child should decide whether they want to take part.
Forcing children to take part in religious observance they may not understand or believe in is wrong.
Assemblies are great for encouraging a "team spirit" in a school, but worship should not be part of this.
If it must happen at all, religious observance in a school should be self-contained and each child should decide whether they want to take part.
Posted by
raywhite
July 03, 2010 at 10:08
Schools are for teaching, not preaching.Teach about religions - their beliefs, history, differences etc. But to have a legal requirement for a daily act of worship in a place of learning provided by the state gives religion a spurious factuality. The existence of a supernatural god simply cannot be proven.
Posted by
mollymockford
July 03, 2010 at 10:35
Daily assembly is valuable, and should not be tarnished with compulsory religion. Removing a child from assembly in order to avoid the religious element also deprives them of the opportunity to receive essential information passed on in assemblies. Either way, the child loses out. Remove religion from assemblies, and there is no problem - and if the child chooses, s/he can worship in his/her own home or religious building. Schools are not the appropriate place for such activity - they should be about teaching facts, not fictions.
Posted by
fionabrooke
July 03, 2010 at 10:45
Leroybasslines has summed up the whole discussion. Fanatics of any sect (including atheism) please go away. Assemblies in schools are valuable social occasions which help make us a cohesive British society. I want that to continue. I want every person who grows up in Britain to know that Christianity is part of our heritage, but that they are free to study all religions and make up their own minds on whether or not to become a member of any faith. The current law promotes only this. It does not indoctrinate anyone. With the whole of society fragmenting into ever increasing isolation with the only refuge online, in games or TV, or shopping, we cannot afford to give up the only element of children's education that asks them to contemplate moral issues each and every day, to spare a thought for those who are suffering or grieving, and to thank whoever or whatever we happen to believe in for the good things in our lives - hopefully our friends and families, for the food we eat, the water we drink, for the beauty of the world around us and for having the time and ability to recognise that not everyone is as fortunate as we are. And you people would scrap it? Shame on you. So it is faintly Christian. So what! You want to throw our history and culture away too? Every child makes their own mind up anyway. Parents are far more effective at indoctrination than schools. It is good to have something that will temper some parents extremist atheism, or religion and allow the children to gradually form their own views, having experienced several views from different parts of their lives, school, home and friends. We need all three for balance.
Posted by
who_he
July 03, 2010 at 10:51
Worship should not be a part of the (useful) collective assembly. I would opt out my child rom these if they included religious content at her schoool, which they do not. If the law is not wanted or enforced, repeal it.
Posted by
vhayden
July 03, 2010 at 10:59
I agree strongly with Louise. This is a secular society and we have no right to enforce religious belief upon children whereas we do have a duty to encourage debate on ethical issues.
Posted by
etricker
July 03, 2010 at 11:03
I agree, in a modern democracy separation of church and state should be paramount. Faith schools should also be scrapped.
Posted by
Howlett123
July 03, 2010 at 11:26
Schools are for education in fact, discussing science & theories & learning about the comfort & dazzle of literature ... religion is a destructive fantasy so there is no need for it to be part of any student's day ... faith schools also need to be gone ... or stand with NO government funding.
Posted by
si_w
July 03, 2010 at 11:58
Regardless of what some posters say, a law that some schools do not obey is still a law. In my experience as a supply teacher a large number of primary (non C of E or Catholic) schools, though few (non C of E or Catholic) secondary schools, do still obey this law. This is plain wrong. It is seeking to indocrinate our children without providing a them an opportunity to critically evaluate their own beliefs.
I do think that it is important children have an awareness of religion, but this should be taught in RE (and maybe the occassional assembly about relevant festivals, but not as an act of worship). I think that only the most ardent atheists would argue that this is not important for social cohesion.
Schools are about teaching people, not telling them what to believe.
I do think that it is important children have an awareness of religion, but this should be taught in RE (and maybe the occassional assembly about relevant festivals, but not as an act of worship). I think that only the most ardent atheists would argue that this is not important for social cohesion.
Schools are about teaching people, not telling them what to believe.
Posted by
redbaron
July 03, 2010 at 12:08
It seems perfectly sensible that a religiously based school should with to hold such ceremonies. Insisting that all schools do however is absurd. Many ignore the law anyhow, which had never to my knowledge been enforced.
Used to hate these morning assemblies with a vengeance as it meant every day I would be risking detention as I refused point blank to either sing or pray to what for me was a fictional entity. In those days it did not make any difference what religion you were either. You were still supposed to recite the lard prayer and similar tosh
Definitely one for the bonfire.
Used to hate these morning assemblies with a vengeance as it meant every day I would be risking detention as I refused point blank to either sing or pray to what for me was a fictional entity. In those days it did not make any difference what religion you were either. You were still supposed to recite the lard prayer and similar tosh
Definitely one for the bonfire.
Posted by
peteregandrivesanaudi
July 03, 2010 at 15:24
Quite right. I hated being forced to pray in school. I knew my own mind by 14, and had to endure 4 years of being made to do something totally against my conscience. The teachers were only too willing to exercise the power to enforce this barbarism. That this is still law in the Twenty-First Century speaks volumes about the unchecked power adults have to enforce their own religious views upon children.
Posted by
patriciamcbride1
July 03, 2010 at 15:37
Psychologists know that there is something in the old saying 'Give me a child to the age of 7 and I will give you the man'. Indoctrinating children into any religion can influence them to such as extent that they unthinkingly believe what they are taught for the rest of their lives. They then don't realise that they can chose their religion or indeed choose to have none. Other than teaching comparative religion (and school should include Humanism in the range), religion should not be part of school life.
In an inclusive society we should not allow faith based schools of any denomination and certainly should not be paying for them out of taxes. Teaching in faith schools is inevitably divisive. Keep religion and school separate.
In an inclusive society we should not allow faith based schools of any denomination and certainly should not be paying for them out of taxes. Teaching in faith schools is inevitably divisive. Keep religion and school separate.
Posted by
dwon
July 03, 2010 at 15:38
keep religion out of schools and the state in general.
Posted by
dwon
July 03, 2010 at 15:48
One of the above posts says we have got it all wrong and christianity is all about love and respect for others but that only actually seems to apply if you agree with Christianity. If you want to show me respect then stop pushing your views on me and my children. Those without religious belief are asking to be left alone, I do not want to be preached to or prayed for and if I am "captive" at school or elsewhere keep your views to yourself and I will do likewise, that is showing respect.
Posted by
bevsan
July 03, 2010 at 15:58
fionabrooke: You are wrongly assuming that scrapping this law would stop school assemblies and stop children from learning about Christianity in RE. Neither of those things is true. Repealing the law would simply stop schools being obliged to hold daily Christian worship (i.e. prayer) in their assemblies if they felt it was innapropriate for their particular population. Schools that want prayers can keep them, though they will prefereably make that decision clear in their prospectus.
Posted by
aaronphil
July 03, 2010 at 16:05
This is a pointless law that seems to undermine human rights and one in which most schools do not implement anyway. There should be an open policy, maybe a separate club at lunchtime/break time for worship to be carried out and then a broad assembly covering any religion and focusing on society rather than one religious belief.
Posted by
trapdoor
July 03, 2010 at 16:31
Has been ignored for years and don't think that organised religion should form any part of schooling (e.g. educating about religions is fine, but active participation is not).
Posted by
getcarternow
July 03, 2010 at 16:32
My children have rights, they have the right not to be subjected to religious crap, I gave then that right.
Posted by
jonstew
July 03, 2010 at 17:23
Absolutely. The state has no role to play in religious thought or practice, least of all coercing children into it. What a terrible piece of legislation.
Posted by
simond
July 03, 2010 at 17:38
Totally agree with this suggestion, I was going to make it myself. It worries me that very small children are being inculcated in this way by authority figures in their lives. It reinforces the belief that religious ideas, like the authority of the school, are not to be challenged. There are much better ways to bring philosophical, moral and ethical content into assemblies if a school wants to. Though I'm not even sure this is the right place for it - ethics and morality should be discussed not handed down by fiat.
Posted by
RS_Maverick
July 03, 2010 at 17:45
689 votes and an average rating of 4.7. Seems pretty clear to me!
Now we find out if our new government are really listening to what we want or if it's all propaganda and spin as usual.
We're waiting...
Now we find out if our new government are really listening to what we want or if it's all propaganda and spin as usual.
We're waiting...
Posted by
myopinioncounts
July 03, 2010 at 18:08
Yes and take it a step further that all schools are secular
Posted by
sgevans123
July 03, 2010 at 18:28
Those who comment that religious school assemblies are no longer compulsory are incorrect - at least here in Wales, where we are obliged to deliver a daily act of collective worship that is 'broadly Christian in nature' (whatever that is). I am a teacher in a state run primary school in Cardiff where we have to abide by this law. As a Humanist I am within my rights to disapply myself from such assemblies, but do not wish to put pressure on colleagues to cover for me in my absence from the school hall. When I take assembly I refuse point blank to preach any form of religious message - I normally base it around an ethical story or fable, with no prayer. Nobody objects to this but I am, technically, breaking the law. I will not proselytize, and I challenge the Welsh Assembly Government (which I otherwise support) to locate me and put me in prison for my villainous act, even though my incarceration will only prolong the despicable act of brainwashing the most vulnerable and precious members of our society.
Please repeal the law - in all parts of the UK.
Please repeal the law - in all parts of the UK.
Posted by
leroybasslines
July 03, 2010 at 19:16
Sgevans, is your act of refusing to preach religious messages as a direct result of your Humanist ethos not in itself a form of 'brainwashing'? Are the parables from the Bible not ethical stories or fables? I, as a Christian, more often than not deliver non-religious assemblies. Why can't you use Christian traditional stories? Would forcing me by law as a Christian to use non-religious themes in my assemblies not be as reprehensible as you being forced to use religion in your assemblies.
I don't mind changing the law to allow teachers greater freedom in assemblies to do what I see fit, but I do mind people like you preaching hatred by claiming that Christians are brainwashing vulnerable children when you are actually doing the same. If that's what you truly believe, then you are as much as an extremist as those idiots who will not allow gay couples in their bed & breakfasts.
Please think things through before you say them. I think you are going against the philosophy of humanism by preaching intolerance as you are.
We need a law to allow people more personal freedom, but we do not need another one that puts us right back where we started and penalises people for what they believe.
I believe that we should never impose our political, religious or spiritual beliefs on young children. Your dogged refusal to use religious stories is doing just that and if you had your way you'd make me a criminal for talking about my faith. Same scenario, different players.
I don't mind changing the law to allow teachers greater freedom in assemblies to do what I see fit, but I do mind people like you preaching hatred by claiming that Christians are brainwashing vulnerable children when you are actually doing the same. If that's what you truly believe, then you are as much as an extremist as those idiots who will not allow gay couples in their bed & breakfasts.
Please think things through before you say them. I think you are going against the philosophy of humanism by preaching intolerance as you are.
We need a law to allow people more personal freedom, but we do not need another one that puts us right back where we started and penalises people for what they believe.
I believe that we should never impose our political, religious or spiritual beliefs on young children. Your dogged refusal to use religious stories is doing just that and if you had your way you'd make me a criminal for talking about my faith. Same scenario, different players.
Posted by
heathercard
July 03, 2010 at 21:06
Religious belief is a matter of choice, for children and adults alike. A collective act of worship in schools is therefore completely inappropriate, as it does not allow children to exercise their right to freedom of belief, other than by being excluded from the act, which demonstrates that it is not, in fact, inclusive. It is also not right that children can only opt out with agreement from their parents, which again denies them their rights to freedom of belief - why assume that children should automatically have the same belief as their parents, or that parents should have the right to determine their child's beliefs for them?
Posted by
tmarsden
July 03, 2010 at 22:03
As an atheist from an early age, I resented being forced to take part in religious assemblies. What Christians and other religios groups should consider is the farce that results from having a religious ceremony mainly involving people with no respect for the occasion. I fondly remember how we used to speed up and slow down hymns while furious teachers (or those that cared) were trying in vain to spot those responsible.
Posted by
RobertFWSmith
July 03, 2010 at 22:04
leroybasslines: It's slightly comforting seeing you saying some of the things I've been vainly trying to get people to listen to elsewhere: http://yourfreedom.hmg.gov.[…]le-of-religious-tolerance-1
I'm not a Christian, but I have several times been tempted to become one purely out of sheer horror and pity at the demented hatred and epic intolerance which is constantly being preached by atheists and secularists against Christians, and all religious people - and even those, like me, who simply keep an open mind to questions of spirituality and divinity. The hypocrisy of it wounds me! But of course, a conversion based on that would be meaningless, and I don't think I'll ever actually become a Christian. Keep up the good fight though!
By the way, I think your comment about the couple who wouldn't let a gay couple sleep together in their B&B being idiots and extremists was a little ungenerous. Were you just throwing a sop to your critics? One of my close friends went to stay in that B&B afterwards, just to see what it was like, and says they were an extremely pleasant, moderate couple. But homosexual acts, like it or not, are a sin in the Christian conception, so they decided they couldn't, in good conscience, knowingly allow it. And imo, as it was their B&B, that was a matter for them, not the State.
I'm not a Christian, but I have several times been tempted to become one purely out of sheer horror and pity at the demented hatred and epic intolerance which is constantly being preached by atheists and secularists against Christians, and all religious people - and even those, like me, who simply keep an open mind to questions of spirituality and divinity. The hypocrisy of it wounds me! But of course, a conversion based on that would be meaningless, and I don't think I'll ever actually become a Christian. Keep up the good fight though!
By the way, I think your comment about the couple who wouldn't let a gay couple sleep together in their B&B being idiots and extremists was a little ungenerous. Were you just throwing a sop to your critics? One of my close friends went to stay in that B&B afterwards, just to see what it was like, and says they were an extremely pleasant, moderate couple. But homosexual acts, like it or not, are a sin in the Christian conception, so they decided they couldn't, in good conscience, knowingly allow it. And imo, as it was their B&B, that was a matter for them, not the State.
Posted by
MChivers
July 03, 2010 at 22:15
It takes teachers all the time they can to teach all they can as it is, surely the extra time would be better spent learning.
Posted by
libbyB
July 03, 2010 at 22:39
Surely in the 21st century it is time to seperate religion and state. Whilst I would defend the right of anybody to believe and worship in whatever way they wish this is purely a private matter and should play no part in the school day other than as a purely historical and comparative subject.
Posted by
jeremyrodell
July 03, 2010 at 22:45
It is not anti-religous to believe that there is no place for compulsory religious practice of any type in state-funded schools, when we live in a diverse society in which one of the largest "faith and belief" groups comprises people who are not religious at all.
That doesn't stop practising Christians following their faith and participating in acts of worship in church. But the days when everyone had to go to church by law are long past. The collective worship regulation is a relic that should be removed.
That doesn't stop practising Christians following their faith and participating in acts of worship in church. But the days when everyone had to go to church by law are long past. The collective worship regulation is a relic that should be removed.
Posted by
RobertFWSmith
July 03, 2010 at 22:55
Interestingly enough, the collective worship regulation is not a "relic" - it was introduced in 1989, I think. Which just goes to show that we can get along fine without it.
On the other hand, I have no doubt whatsoever that the majority of people agitating for the removal of religion from public life ARE "anti-religious". Hatred of religious people seems to be a lot of people's primary concern in life.
On the other hand, I have no doubt whatsoever that the majority of people agitating for the removal of religion from public life ARE "anti-religious". Hatred of religious people seems to be a lot of people's primary concern in life.
Posted by
geogeo
July 04, 2010 at 06:55
"Hatred of religious people seems to be a lot of people's primary concern in life." - previous comment
A bit off-target here I think. It's not hatred of people but of a system that tries to exert undue influence over others for its own ends.
A bit off-target here I think. It's not hatred of people but of a system that tries to exert undue influence over others for its own ends.
Posted by
dennislendrem
July 04, 2010 at 09:06
Strongly support collective assembly without worship.
Posted by
juddo1
July 04, 2010 at 09:35
hopeknotty: as any fule no, "Christmas" & "Easter" are names applied to pre-Christian festivals celebrated at those times in the year. The Christians also built churches on many "pagan" sites & took over many of their rituals. There's nothing new under the sun & you might as well worship that, at least you can see it. Sometimes!
Posted by
pjogden
July 04, 2010 at 09:57
I fail to understand why a perfectly rational and useful activity such as school assembly should be tainted by a desperate attempt by people of faith to indoctrinate children into sharing a belief in their own choice of unfounded myths. I guess that this is the way in which memes like religion work - find the weakest least rational members of society and work on them.
Posted by
bevsan
July 04, 2010 at 14:25
RobertFWSmith: I posted this same suggestion elsewhere on the site, but I'm certainly not anti-religious, and would defend anyone's right to worship in their own time if they wanted to. I just don't want it forced on other people. That is why I think that the current law is out of date and against human rights. Many people agree with this. Some of them have used the comment space to rant against religion in general, and in some cases their comments have been disrespectful, but there is no reason why you should tar all atheists, agnostics, humanists, secularists etc with the same brush. You will find the same range of views (from moderate to extreme), and the same indelicacy of expression, in any sector of society, including religious sectors. However, the argument for removal of this anachronistic law is completely solid.
Posted by
alanclark
July 04, 2010 at 14:32
Religion in schools should be like sex: teach them about it when they are old enough to understand, but don't make them to do it!
Posted by
sitemoderatorN
July 04, 2010 at 16:05
User 'wastuart'
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Posted by
indiagirl
July 04, 2010 at 17:16
I have never understood how anyone could think they could teach people to believe in something. This law should go as it comes from a time when the church was all powerful especially in education and that is no longer true. By all means teach children about religion and hold assemblies but the two do not have to be combined surely.
Posted by
wastuart
July 04, 2010 at 17:46
I believe that religion and beliefs should be taught in schools together with the good and evil that they have created. None of these beliefs should be taught as fact because clearly they can’t all be fact. To suggest that just one of them is fact, ie Christianity in this country, just creates division. Obviously the same is true of other beliefs. The creation of more “faith” schools increases these divisions to the detriment of international and even family harmony.
Forced worship in schools must be abolished. The suggestion that children can, with parental request, be excused worship is deliberately misleading. Schools do not currently have alternative assemblies available. Thus children who opt out are made to feel the odd ones out.
Sorry I accidentally included my address in my first post!
Forced worship in schools must be abolished. The suggestion that children can, with parental request, be excused worship is deliberately misleading. Schools do not currently have alternative assemblies available. Thus children who opt out are made to feel the odd ones out.
Sorry I accidentally included my address in my first post!
Posted by
petergall
July 04, 2010 at 20:34
Indoctrination is inconsistent with the concept of education and has no place in our school system.
Posted by
Ginger
July 04, 2010 at 20:37
Absolutely agree with this. I would have to disagree with those who claim that a school states that if they are religious or not. My school did not claim to be religious, but we had RE lessons where we told by the teacher that Christianity was right, and people who followed other religions were wrong and would not be accepted into heaven. I didn't believe back then and don't believe now, but I would hate to think that my child would be taught the same.
Posted by
GedRoddam
July 04, 2010 at 21:07
As a former primary school governor, and indeed chair of the governing body; this is a useless law. In four years the governing body didn't discuss religion once. The well being of the children, yes, but religion no.
If it doesn't add anything to our children's education, our school didn't enforce it and I guess most others don't; so lets lose it from the statue books.
If it doesn't add anything to our children's education, our school didn't enforce it and I guess most others don't; so lets lose it from the statue books.
Posted by
x89
July 04, 2010 at 21:11
Agree absolutely, religion is a joke which is force fed our children.
Posted by
steve_prior
July 04, 2010 at 23:53
Religiosity has no virtue and should not be taught as if it does.
Posted by
betula
July 05, 2010 at 08:02
Schools are for education not indoctrination. Children should be educated to use their minds so that they can form their own opinions. I firmly support the proposal to abolish the requirement for acts of collective worship at schools.
Posted by
mmeeks
July 05, 2010 at 09:29
The disease of secularism is apparently rampant here. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom; if only we could inculcate some wisdom in our children, we would have a better, safer society.
Posted by
MRStocks
July 05, 2010 at 09:37
The sooner we take religion out of schools altogether, the better for society as a whole. Religion should only be taught as a subject for study, not as an end or belief system.
Posted by
bmcg
July 05, 2010 at 10:37
Compulsory religious education has stunted the ability of generations of humanity to talk about morals in a reasoned, philosophical manner. Religious indoctrination promotes an 'us and them' mentality and gives religious adherents the belief that they hold a monopoly on goodness. I am a good and moral person and I would be so with or without the teachings of clergy.
Posted by
marywallbank
July 05, 2010 at 11:15
Nobody should be compelled to 'worship'. If there was any value in such activity it would render it meaningless.
Posted by
pgreenway
July 05, 2010 at 11:43
I agree whole heartedly with the wealth of comments on these pages. Teaching supernatural beliefs as fact to young innocent minds is child abuse. Keep faith the hell out of all schools!
Posted by
iwinter
July 05, 2010 at 12:16
There is no justification for religion to be linked to Education in any way whatsoever other than as a subject of interest for those who choose to study it.
With subjects like Math and Computing getting ever more in depth and complex, we simply don't have time to waste on subjects and assemblies that most children will end up having gained absolutely nothing from in the first place because they decide for themselves that they are not religious.
I agree completely with this proposal. If religion has the merits religious leaders suggest then allow people to discover that for themselves, if religion really can help people in the way it is sold, then it should not need be forced on children when they're often too young to decide about it for themselves.
With subjects like Math and Computing getting ever more in depth and complex, we simply don't have time to waste on subjects and assemblies that most children will end up having gained absolutely nothing from in the first place because they decide for themselves that they are not religious.
I agree completely with this proposal. If religion has the merits religious leaders suggest then allow people to discover that for themselves, if religion really can help people in the way it is sold, then it should not need be forced on children when they're often too young to decide about it for themselves.
Posted by
santherus
July 05, 2010 at 12:37
Wholeheartedly agree. A centre for education has no place in enforcing religious observance.
Posted by
SRobson
July 05, 2010 at 12:51
I would go further and make it against the law to hold religious collective worship, also abolish 'faith 'schools' altogether.
Posted by
Andrew_A
July 05, 2010 at 14:37
Okay I've been following this for a while now and I feel the need to comment on this. Okay firstly:
1) I was brought up as a Roman Catholic and went to faith schools both primary and secondary.
2) I have taught in schools both Faith and Non-Faith.
3) I am not a Religious person myself and this is a choice that I have made.
Okay now let me clarify on a few things I am almost 30 and during my time in faith schools there was collective worship HOWEVER parents could opt their children out of this if they wanted too and it was frequently done, when it came to secondary school I myself opted out of this as I would rather spend my time learing about other things. So I cannot see how people here say it is "enforced" have we even asked for our kids not to be put in worship? Also why are you sending them to a faith school if you do not want them in worship?
during my teaching time at both faith and non faith schools and the attitude was the same, in the faith schools there was an opt-out and in the non faith there was an opt-in.
Again the time I spent in faith and non faith has not effected my religious views this was something I figured out for myself.
"There is no justification for religion to be linked to Education in any way whatsoever other than as a subject of interest for those who choose to study it."
Oh? Is that a fact? So when we teach pupils about Henry VIII we cannot discuss it? We cannot discuss that a lot of todays problems we have in the middle east stem from the Crusades? Or how Rome used it to convert the population to accept the Empire? In fact the effect that Religion has had on the world should be taught more. I agree in the sense that if you want to go and study a particular faith that you should be able to cover that in one of your options you undertake later on in education. But General Religious Study should be taught in all schools, but as I have said more on the effect that it has had on the world today.
But lets not forget that if we completely remove worship from all schools that you WILL be discriminating agains those who wish to worship in any faith. It cannot be all or nothing there needs to be a balance.
1) I was brought up as a Roman Catholic and went to faith schools both primary and secondary.
2) I have taught in schools both Faith and Non-Faith.
3) I am not a Religious person myself and this is a choice that I have made.
Okay now let me clarify on a few things I am almost 30 and during my time in faith schools there was collective worship HOWEVER parents could opt their children out of this if they wanted too and it was frequently done, when it came to secondary school I myself opted out of this as I would rather spend my time learing about other things. So I cannot see how people here say it is "enforced" have we even asked for our kids not to be put in worship? Also why are you sending them to a faith school if you do not want them in worship?
during my teaching time at both faith and non faith schools and the attitude was the same, in the faith schools there was an opt-out and in the non faith there was an opt-in.
Again the time I spent in faith and non faith has not effected my religious views this was something I figured out for myself.
"There is no justification for religion to be linked to Education in any way whatsoever other than as a subject of interest for those who choose to study it."
Oh? Is that a fact? So when we teach pupils about Henry VIII we cannot discuss it? We cannot discuss that a lot of todays problems we have in the middle east stem from the Crusades? Or how Rome used it to convert the population to accept the Empire? In fact the effect that Religion has had on the world should be taught more. I agree in the sense that if you want to go and study a particular faith that you should be able to cover that in one of your options you undertake later on in education. But General Religious Study should be taught in all schools, but as I have said more on the effect that it has had on the world today.
But lets not forget that if we completely remove worship from all schools that you WILL be discriminating agains those who wish to worship in any faith. It cannot be all or nothing there needs to be a balance.
Posted by
kathylewis
July 05, 2010 at 14:45
I agree. Not just collective worship assembles but also having to say grace at lunchtime - completely inappropriate.
Posted by
christopher
July 05, 2010 at 16:02
@ Andrew_A
Disagree on several points.
"HOWEVER parents could opt their children out of this if they wanted too [sic]"
and
"if we completely remove worship from all schools that you WILL be discriminating agains those who wish to worship in any faith".
- You are free to worship whatever you like in your own time. Nobody should need to opt out of anything. Why do we divide kids up in school based on their parents' religion? How about we divide them up by who their parents vote for?
"...the time I spent in faith and non faith has not effected my religious views this was something I figured out for myself."
- How did you figure it out for yourself if you ignored the religious education which you defend so strongly? If it has no affect what's the point in doing it at all?
and
"So when we teach pupils about Henry VIII we cannot discuss it? We cannot discuss that a lot of todays problems we have in the middle east stem from the Crusades? Or how Rome used it to convert the population to accept the Empire?"
- It is crucial that children are taught these things. These examples are demonstrative of the violence, division and manipulation caused by religion which have persisted across the world to this day.
Maybe kids can then figure it out for themselves, just like you did.
Disagree on several points.
"HOWEVER parents could opt their children out of this if they wanted too [sic]"
and
"if we completely remove worship from all schools that you WILL be discriminating agains those who wish to worship in any faith".
- You are free to worship whatever you like in your own time. Nobody should need to opt out of anything. Why do we divide kids up in school based on their parents' religion? How about we divide them up by who their parents vote for?
"...the time I spent in faith and non faith has not effected my religious views this was something I figured out for myself."
- How did you figure it out for yourself if you ignored the religious education which you defend so strongly? If it has no affect what's the point in doing it at all?
and
"So when we teach pupils about Henry VIII we cannot discuss it? We cannot discuss that a lot of todays problems we have in the middle east stem from the Crusades? Or how Rome used it to convert the population to accept the Empire?"
- It is crucial that children are taught these things. These examples are demonstrative of the violence, division and manipulation caused by religion which have persisted across the world to this day.
Maybe kids can then figure it out for themselves, just like you did.
Posted by
ajtaylor56
July 05, 2010 at 16:16
I think that it is very important to teach children about religion. (all religions) The point is that this should not include worship.Worship should be a choice that everyone makes for themselves when they are old enough to make it. In practice it is very difficult to remove children from acts of worship in school without also removing them from a whole assembly which contains many other useful messages and celebrations.I know i've tried.
Posted by
welf
July 05, 2010 at 17:46
The only time i was brought up in front of the headmaster at middle shcool was when I refused my duty as a prefect to read from the bible in School assembly. I was bullied by the headmaster into reading to the school a load of, what I considered and still do, to be a load of fairy stories. I was literally bullied into it, they brought my sister in too to persuade me. I am absolutely delighted to see the tide of opinion has changed and common sense and rational thought are now taking over.
I consider all religious education to be a complete waste of our children's time and frankly I consider it to be child molestation. Get religion completely out of school. It's the 21st Century, religion is clearly nonsense. Our kids are facing an uncertain and rapidly changing future and need skills to equip them for it. Not a load of mumbo jumbo.
I consider all religious education to be a complete waste of our children's time and frankly I consider it to be child molestation. Get religion completely out of school. It's the 21st Century, religion is clearly nonsense. Our kids are facing an uncertain and rapidly changing future and need skills to equip them for it. Not a load of mumbo jumbo.
Posted by
jimgunther
July 05, 2010 at 17:51
It's important that children learn about the world's religions and their cultural impact on societies, in a rational and objective way. Forcing children to take part in an act of worship in one particular religion is indoctrination, not education.
Posted by
biblewinsciencefail
July 05, 2010 at 17:53
the current 1944 education act should be properly enforced. all kids should have daily Christian worship. prosecute heads who fail to do so.
better Biblical education leads to better society.
biblewinsciencefail @ youtube
better Biblical education leads to better society.
biblewinsciencefail @ youtube
Posted by
Justice
July 05, 2010 at 17:58
We are and remain a Christian country !
Posted by
alunap
July 05, 2010 at 19:40
It is quite outrageous that in this day and age a religious group can force everybody's children to worship their particular god and have to 'opt-out' if they don't want to. Religious people are free to worship, but not free to foist their beliefs on others, particularly not on other people's children. Opting out is not a good option (although we do it) because so many parents are unwilling to be the first and make their child separate from the crowd.
The tying of morality and religion is simply ridiculous. It shows the bad affect that religion has on moral judgement that Christians, for example, don't see that their own beliefs are inherently immoral. They worship a god which, according to their stories, has massacred milions, and condemned many more to torture, and think that it is legitimate that the sins of the fathers are visited onto the children - hence the fall and supposed original sin. Then it is ok for somebody else, an innocent person, to be made to pay the penalty for other people's crimes - which they didn't commit anyway (the story of redemption). This is just ludicrous, and I certainly would want my children to have a better sense of morality than that!
The tying of morality and religion is simply ridiculous. It shows the bad affect that religion has on moral judgement that Christians, for example, don't see that their own beliefs are inherently immoral. They worship a god which, according to their stories, has massacred milions, and condemned many more to torture, and think that it is legitimate that the sins of the fathers are visited onto the children - hence the fall and supposed original sin. Then it is ok for somebody else, an innocent person, to be made to pay the penalty for other people's crimes - which they didn't commit anyway (the story of redemption). This is just ludicrous, and I certainly would want my children to have a better sense of morality than that!
Posted by
alunap
July 05, 2010 at 19:40
It is quite outrageous that in this day and age a religious group can force everybody's children to worship their particular god and have to 'opt-out' if they don't want to. Religious people are free to worship, but not free to foist their beliefs on others, particularly not on other people's children. Opting out is not a good option (although we do it) because so many parents are unwilling to be the first and make their child separate from the crowd.
The tying of morality and religion is simply ridiculous. It shows the bad affect that religion has on moral judgement that Christians, for example, don't see that their own beliefs are inherently immoral. They worship a god which, according to their stories, has massacred milions, and condemned many more to torture, and think that it is legitimate that the sins of the fathers are visited onto the children - hence the fall and supposed original sin. Then it is ok for somebody else, an innocent person, to be made to pay the penalty for other people's crimes - which they didn't commit anyway (the story of redemption). This is just ludicrous, and I certainly would want my children to have a better sense of morality than that!
The tying of morality and religion is simply ridiculous. It shows the bad affect that religion has on moral judgement that Christians, for example, don't see that their own beliefs are inherently immoral. They worship a god which, according to their stories, has massacred milions, and condemned many more to torture, and think that it is legitimate that the sins of the fathers are visited onto the children - hence the fall and supposed original sin. Then it is ok for somebody else, an innocent person, to be made to pay the penalty for other people's crimes - which they didn't commit anyway (the story of redemption). This is just ludicrous, and I certainly would want my children to have a better sense of morality than that!
Posted by
alanrclarke1
July 05, 2010 at 19:50
It is a very long time since the UK has been overwhelmingly Christain. This is an utterly outdated law, and is an underhand way to try to indoctinate children in one particular religion.
All religions should be presented to children, in an objective fashion, including the objective fact that they are all based on superstition and irrational belief, without a shred of objective evidence to support the existince of any god, never mind a Christian one.
All religions should be presented to children, in an objective fashion, including the objective fact that they are all based on superstition and irrational belief, without a shred of objective evidence to support the existince of any god, never mind a Christian one.
Posted by
wessexmario
July 05, 2010 at 20:11
Our legal system is based on FACTS.
In a court of law, every case is determined by EVIDENCE.
So, Why do we have ANY laws that support the idea that a non-material god exists?
There is no evidence to support it.
There is a world of difference between teaching secular morality, and unverifiable fiction about supposedly immortal beings. To teach a child that something should be believed when there is no evidence to support it amounts to child abuse.
In a court of law, every case is determined by EVIDENCE.
So, Why do we have ANY laws that support the idea that a non-material god exists?
There is no evidence to support it.
There is a world of difference between teaching secular morality, and unverifiable fiction about supposedly immortal beings. To teach a child that something should be believed when there is no evidence to support it amounts to child abuse.
Posted by
AnnB
July 05, 2010 at 20:20
Take religion out of schools. It is wholly inappropriate to inflict a daily religious assembly on a group of children that may or actually, always does, include non-believers. I have always been offended by the assumption that my beliefs are your beliefs. My beliefs are private and so should be any prayers/worship.
Give children moral guidance; religion doesn't have a monopoly on this. As a humanist, I know that humans are capable of great GOOD WITHOUT GOD.
Give children moral guidance; religion doesn't have a monopoly on this. As a humanist, I know that humans are capable of great GOOD WITHOUT GOD.
Posted by
AnnB
July 05, 2010 at 20:20
Take religion out of schools. It is wholly inappropriate to inflict a daily religious assembly on a group of children that may or actually, always does, include non-believers. I have always been offended by the assumption that my beliefs are your beliefs. My beliefs are private and so should be any prayers/worship.
Give children moral guidance; religion doesn't have a monopoly on this. As a humanist, I know that humans are capable of great GOOD WITHOUT GOD.
Give children moral guidance; religion doesn't have a monopoly on this. As a humanist, I know that humans are capable of great GOOD WITHOUT GOD.
Posted by
lcjh
July 05, 2010 at 21:23
I have no difficulty in people worshipping collectively or during school assemblies. The Human Rights Act 1998 protects peoples’ right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion so I see no reason why there should be restrictions on worship except where this is used to promote extremism or hatred. We enjoy an incredible Christian heritage which has influenced our laws, literature, art and our core vales of fairness and decency for centuries. If people, whether it be at school assemblies or at places of work, wish to acknowledge this through prayer or thanks giving then this should be respected. Why stop time honoured and dignified practices of meaning to many which are rooted in our Christian heritage just because others disagree with them when the can simply opt out at no significant detriment?
Nor do I see the problem with parents choosing to send their children to religious schools or bringing them up within a certain faith. We are all products of our upbringing and should respect that parents, with limited exceptions, are best placed to meet the emotional, physical and possibly spiritual needs of their children. If you are opposed to indoctrination then perhaps you should campaign to ban all adverts?
Nor do I see the problem with parents choosing to send their children to religious schools or bringing them up within a certain faith. We are all products of our upbringing and should respect that parents, with limited exceptions, are best placed to meet the emotional, physical and possibly spiritual needs of their children. If you are opposed to indoctrination then perhaps you should campaign to ban all adverts?
Posted by
HistoryMick
July 05, 2010 at 22:44
Children must be encouraged to think for themselves - especially on such divisive issues as religion. Even religious individuals must surely be able to see this! We should change this law to actively BAN collective worship.
Posted by
RDickie
July 06, 2010 at 10:25
Let them grow up and choose for themselves. It is an insult to the children to assume their religious position for them.
Posted by
ianbarton
July 06, 2010 at 11:57
I think that they should scrap the law that says that all schools must hold an act of (broadly Christian) collective worship every day because:
• It forces young people to pray or worship regardless of their personal beliefs
• It does not respect children’s and young people’s rights to freedom to NOT believe
• Under 16s can’t opt-themselves out without their parents’ permission
• Secular assemblies are a better less-devisive alternative
• It forces young people to pray or worship regardless of their personal beliefs
• It does not respect children’s and young people’s rights to freedom to NOT believe
• Under 16s can’t opt-themselves out without their parents’ permission
• Secular assemblies are a better less-devisive alternative
Posted by
ianbarton
July 06, 2010 at 11:57
I think that they should scrap the law that says that all schools must hold an act of (broadly Christian) collective worship every day because:
• It forces young people to pray or worship regardless of their personal beliefs
• It does not respect children’s and young people’s rights to freedom to NOT believe
• Under 16s can’t opt-themselves out without their parents’ permission
• Secular assemblies are a better less-devisive alternative
• It forces young people to pray or worship regardless of their personal beliefs
• It does not respect children’s and young people’s rights to freedom to NOT believe
• Under 16s can’t opt-themselves out without their parents’ permission
• Secular assemblies are a better less-devisive alternative
Posted by
richardnorman
July 06, 2010 at 12:06
It is a sure sign of a bad law that it is regularly flouted with impunity, and thereby brings the law in general into disrepute. That’s the case with the law requiring compulsory worship in schools. Many schools and headteachers are happy to ignore it and accept a small item of mild censure in their OFSTED report. In those schools where the law is followed, the result is an embarrassing charade which very few school pupils take seriously. I’d have thought that not only atheists but also committed Christians and other religious believers would want to see the end of this law, since it turns what ought to be a meaningful act of worship into a meaningless mechanical routine.
Posted by
richardnorman
July 06, 2010 at 12:06
It is a sure sign of a bad law that it is regularly flouted with impunity, and thereby brings the law in general into disrepute. That’s the case with the law requiring compulsory worship in schools. Many schools and headteachers are happy to ignore it and accept a small item of mild censure in their OFSTED report. In those schools where the law is followed, the result is an embarrassing charade which very few school pupils take seriously. I’d have thought that not only atheists but also committed Christians and other religious believers would want to see the end of this law, since it turns what ought to be a meaningful act of worship into a meaningless mechanical routine.
Posted by
akinmont
July 06, 2010 at 12:18
A cornerstone of Democracy is the principle of freedom of religious (or non religious) practise.
If religious practise is legally enforced in schools, it is not a democracy.
I hope we live in a democracy.
Please scrap this law
Posted by
JoeBloggs
July 06, 2010 at 12:33
I totally agree.
I used to be a Roman Catholic(I'm fine now thanks)
and believe that fairy tales need to be left at home for bedtime, and just the facts taught in school.
Better still BAN RELIGION!
Its only legalized brainwashing anyway in my opinion!
If we didn't have any religion on this planet, we probably would become more technologically advanced.
It makes me laugh that I'm going hell just because I don't believe in an invisible man, but a child molester can repent on their deathbed and be welcomed with open arm into heaven by JC and his crew!?
In other words, believe in me or burn in hell forever!
But remember...GOD LOVES ALL HIS CHILDREN...
????????????????????????????????????????????????
I used to be a Roman Catholic(I'm fine now thanks)
and believe that fairy tales need to be left at home for bedtime, and just the facts taught in school.
Better still BAN RELIGION!
Its only legalized brainwashing anyway in my opinion!
If we didn't have any religion on this planet, we probably would become more technologically advanced.
It makes me laugh that I'm going hell just because I don't believe in an invisible man, but a child molester can repent on their deathbed and be welcomed with open arm into heaven by JC and his crew!?
In other words, believe in me or burn in hell forever!
But remember...GOD LOVES ALL HIS CHILDREN...
????????????????????????????????????????????????
Posted by
dr_parsley
July 06, 2010 at 12:58
I agree, but for quite different reasons. 1) It is blasphemous for unbelievers to pretend to worship God and 2) the Christian elements in school assemblies are hopelessly watered down and only serve to inoculate people against real Christian ideas.
BUT to make them not compulsory must go hand in hand with not making it illegal. Schools should be free to do what they like without interference from anyone other than their governing body.
BUT to make them not compulsory must go hand in hand with not making it illegal. Schools should be free to do what they like without interference from anyone other than their governing body.
Posted by
jnoshea
July 06, 2010 at 13:27
As a parent and a school governor, I have always been and always will be opposed to very idea of forced collective worship in any shape or form. It must end. It is a clear violation of a child's human rights.
Posted by
across
July 06, 2010 at 13:32
The state shouldn't be complicit in enabling the old to force their religion on the young. Besides... have we all forgot how boring daily worship was when we were in school? :-)
Posted by
across
July 06, 2010 at 13:33
The state shouldn't be complicit in enabling the old to force their religion on the young. Besides... have we all forgot how boring daily worship was when we were in school? :-)
Posted by
bevsan
July 06, 2010 at 13:44
lcjh: You have misunderstood. This suggestion is not about restricting orship, or preventing worship. It is only about freedom of choice. The existing law says that ALL schools, regardless of their ethos, must hold daily acts of Christian worship. that law is out of date and needs to be repealed to allow schools to make their own decisions on the content of their assemblies. Many will continue to provide worship, especially faith schools, so long as they exist. However, many community schools may choose to provide other forms of worship, or none at all. Who can argue with that?
p.s. This isn't the place for discussions on the rights and wrongs of faith schools. Anyone interested in that topic should instead visit http://www.accordcoalition.org.uk/[…]/.
p.s. This isn't the place for discussions on the rights and wrongs of faith schools. Anyone interested in that topic should instead visit http://www.accordcoalition.org.uk/[…]/.
Posted by
davidflint
July 06, 2010 at 14:37
Compulsory worship is indefensible.
Posted by
RichardJC
July 06, 2010 at 16:55
I think Christians who defend the mandatory act of worship should ask themselves what they would think if their child went to a school with a mandatory act of worship of another religion. Would they be happy?
Would they be happy if the assemblies and school then went on to teach the children that the family religion was wrong? I don't see how Christianity can be practiced in school without this given the centrality of the need to worship Jesus to its message. Would a Christian family be happy for their children to be taught for example that attachment to impermanent Self (their belief in heaven) was unhelpful?
So send non-Christian kids to non-Christian schools - but how can we have enough schools to achieve this, and why segregate children this way anyway?
Would they be happy if the assemblies and school then went on to teach the children that the family religion was wrong? I don't see how Christianity can be practiced in school without this given the centrality of the need to worship Jesus to its message. Would a Christian family be happy for their children to be taught for example that attachment to impermanent Self (their belief in heaven) was unhelpful?
So send non-Christian kids to non-Christian schools - but how can we have enough schools to achieve this, and why segregate children this way anyway?
Posted by
christopher
July 06, 2010 at 17:11
Do we receive any official response as to how these comments will be taken in to consideration?
Posted by
Guacamoledave
July 06, 2010 at 20:20
I agree. And while we're about it, let's scrap state funding of faith schools, or allow children of all and no faiths equal access.
Posted by
Guacamoledave
July 06, 2010 at 20:20
I agree. And while we're about it, let's scrap state funding of faith schools, or allow children of all and no faiths equal access.
Posted by
lcjh
July 06, 2010 at 23:12
I really fail to see why schools performing acts of collective worship is a problem and I feel that this is a debate where prejudices and hatred are best put aside.
The law allows parents to withdraw their children from such worship and pupils over 16 can also do so too in any state funded schools. There is therefore no real argument that pupils are being forced into worship as there is a choice. If a child is under 16 and their parent does not wish to opt them out of worship then this has to be respected as a legitimate use of parental control as parents often have to make decisions affecting the upbringing of their children and clearly cannot always allow self determination. Schools can also apply for exemption from offering worship of a broadly Christian nature if this is inappropriate having regard to the composition of the school.
The requirement that acts of worship be of a broadly Christian character does not preclude worship containing non-Christian material or even having secular assemblies during the school year. Even the British Humanist Society accepts this. All belief systems can therefore be accommodated at the same time as acknowledging the Christian heritage that we all enjoy as referred to in my posting of the 5th July 2010. There is no reason why Christian worship should not be undertaken in consideration of the historical and constitutional links the State has with Christianity and given the importance that faith still plays today as a source of great strength, hope and joy to millions of people. Atheism does not quite have the same pull.
The law and guidance on this issue clearly respects the rights of non-religious parents and pupils in a flexible and pragmatic way. Replacing the worship element in a schools daily routine with a non-religious element entirely would be to impose one belief system (atheism) and associated secular values on everyone which is clearly unfair in a democratic society. Clearly if you are worried about indoctrination of children then why not campaign against an intrusive media with its controlling messages?
The Government will clearly have to consult widely on any changes affecting school worship to ensure both that the views of all our citizens are properly taken into account and that there is a balanced approach.
The law allows parents to withdraw their children from such worship and pupils over 16 can also do so too in any state funded schools. There is therefore no real argument that pupils are being forced into worship as there is a choice. If a child is under 16 and their parent does not wish to opt them out of worship then this has to be respected as a legitimate use of parental control as parents often have to make decisions affecting the upbringing of their children and clearly cannot always allow self determination. Schools can also apply for exemption from offering worship of a broadly Christian nature if this is inappropriate having regard to the composition of the school.
The requirement that acts of worship be of a broadly Christian character does not preclude worship containing non-Christian material or even having secular assemblies during the school year. Even the British Humanist Society accepts this. All belief systems can therefore be accommodated at the same time as acknowledging the Christian heritage that we all enjoy as referred to in my posting of the 5th July 2010. There is no reason why Christian worship should not be undertaken in consideration of the historical and constitutional links the State has with Christianity and given the importance that faith still plays today as a source of great strength, hope and joy to millions of people. Atheism does not quite have the same pull.
The law and guidance on this issue clearly respects the rights of non-religious parents and pupils in a flexible and pragmatic way. Replacing the worship element in a schools daily routine with a non-religious element entirely would be to impose one belief system (atheism) and associated secular values on everyone which is clearly unfair in a democratic society. Clearly if you are worried about indoctrination of children then why not campaign against an intrusive media with its controlling messages?
The Government will clearly have to consult widely on any changes affecting school worship to ensure both that the views of all our citizens are properly taken into account and that there is a balanced approach.
Posted by
easterner88
July 06, 2010 at 23:13
Everyone constantly attacks Faith schools and "indoctrination" but we have been a proud christian state for over a thousand years and it has never done society any harm. Christianity doesn't always have to be taken as absolute fact but more of a set of moral codes; yes the stories in the bible may not exactly be fully factual but they were probably written to give people moral guidance in life revolving around god. Children should be given the chance to embrace a god figure in their lives then later on if they choose not to believe in it then so be it.
Yes I was taught all about god and prayed in primary school, but I am certainly no worse for it and it has installed a lot of the morals that I hold dearly today. I'm no hardcore Christian but I do have faith; athiests should stop attacking the state religion as it does a lot more good than evil.
Keep things as they are and allow children to decide as they grow up. At the end of the day there is no right answer to our existance here on earth so the teaching of creationism etc would surely also be indoctrination?
Yes I was taught all about god and prayed in primary school, but I am certainly no worse for it and it has installed a lot of the morals that I hold dearly today. I'm no hardcore Christian but I do have faith; athiests should stop attacking the state religion as it does a lot more good than evil.
Keep things as they are and allow children to decide as they grow up. At the end of the day there is no right answer to our existance here on earth so the teaching of creationism etc would surely also be indoctrination?
Posted by
angelsforce
July 06, 2010 at 23:31
I just wondered - how many of you follow the Commandments as a moral code? Where should our young people learn how to behave morally? Are you happy with the way a lot of adolescents behave in society? No? Think about it....
Posted by
democrat
July 07, 2010 at 01:00
Religion does not hold the monopoly over morality.
Is it a coincidence that the moral codes across the ENTIRE human race are basically the same? Don't kill, don't steal, be respectful etc.
The Bible, Torah and Koran are bogged down in 6000 years of violence, racism and misogyny. Some of the stories are shockingly unacceptable to modern standards - if you truly believe the books to be 'holy' you cannot pick and choose what you accept.
"And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, the king desireth not any dowry, but a hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to be avenged of the king's enemies....wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men, and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son-in-law." (Samuel 18:25,27)
I would rather my children take Aesop's fables as a guide to morality.
Is it a coincidence that the moral codes across the ENTIRE human race are basically the same? Don't kill, don't steal, be respectful etc.
The Bible, Torah and Koran are bogged down in 6000 years of violence, racism and misogyny. Some of the stories are shockingly unacceptable to modern standards - if you truly believe the books to be 'holy' you cannot pick and choose what you accept.
"And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, the king desireth not any dowry, but a hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to be avenged of the king's enemies....wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men, and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son-in-law." (Samuel 18:25,27)
I would rather my children take Aesop's fables as a guide to morality.
Posted by
democrat
July 07, 2010 at 01:00
Religion does not hold the monopoly over morality.
Is it a coincidence that the moral codes across the ENTIRE human race are basically the same? Don't kill, don't steal, be respectful etc.
The Bible, Torah and Koran are bogged down in 6000 years of violence, racism and misogyny. Some of the stories are shockingly unacceptable to modern standards - if you truly believe the books to be 'holy' you cannot pick and choose what you accept.
"And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, the king desireth not any dowry, but a hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to be avenged of the king's enemies....wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men, and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son-in-law." (Samuel 18:25,27)
I would rather my children take Aesop's fables as a guide to morality.
Is it a coincidence that the moral codes across the ENTIRE human race are basically the same? Don't kill, don't steal, be respectful etc.
The Bible, Torah and Koran are bogged down in 6000 years of violence, racism and misogyny. Some of the stories are shockingly unacceptable to modern standards - if you truly believe the books to be 'holy' you cannot pick and choose what you accept.
"And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, the king desireth not any dowry, but a hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to be avenged of the king's enemies....wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men, and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son-in-law." (Samuel 18:25,27)
I would rather my children take Aesop's fables as a guide to morality.
Posted by
sunshine14
July 07, 2010 at 08:55
My impression is that this law has not been observed or enforced for many years in many schools, so it is an ideal candidate for repeal, especially as it is out of step with the secular character of the modern British state.
Posted by
RichardJC
July 07, 2010 at 12:56
"Replacing the worship element in a schools daily routine with a non-religious element entirely would be to impose one belief system (atheism) and associated secular values on everyone which is clearly unfair in a democratic society."
We are asking for the repeal of a law that states that all school assemblies should be religious in nature and should honour "the special position of Christ". If you see that requiring all schools to have an assembly which is atheist would be unfair then you must be able to see that requiring all schools to have Christian assemblies is unfair.
I disagree that a non-religious assembly is "just as bad" because it is atheist. Do you expect religion to be everywhere in school? Maths doesn't become atheist when it does not worship every day.
Assemblies can be great without religion. You'd not have to remove religion from all assemblies. There is plenty of opportunity to discuss various issues without having to worship. More neutral assemblies would work better in a school with children from various faith backgrounds.
This is all beside the point. The request is that the law requiring ALL schools to worship is repealed. It has already been noted that the exception clauses are not sufficient. Repealing this law does not ban a school such as a faith school from worshipping. It only allows schools that don't want to worship to do so. So if you want your kids to pray in assembly and sing hymns at school you can still send them to a school that does.
We are asking for the repeal of a law that states that all school assemblies should be religious in nature and should honour "the special position of Christ". If you see that requiring all schools to have an assembly which is atheist would be unfair then you must be able to see that requiring all schools to have Christian assemblies is unfair.
I disagree that a non-religious assembly is "just as bad" because it is atheist. Do you expect religion to be everywhere in school? Maths doesn't become atheist when it does not worship every day.
Assemblies can be great without religion. You'd not have to remove religion from all assemblies. There is plenty of opportunity to discuss various issues without having to worship. More neutral assemblies would work better in a school with children from various faith backgrounds.
This is all beside the point. The request is that the law requiring ALL schools to worship is repealed. It has already been noted that the exception clauses are not sufficient. Repealing this law does not ban a school such as a faith school from worshipping. It only allows schools that don't want to worship to do so. So if you want your kids to pray in assembly and sing hymns at school you can still send them to a school that does.
Posted by
RichardJC
July 07, 2010 at 13:24
Angelsforce - as a Hindu I routinely flout the first 3 or 4 of the Ten Commandments, but I think I do reasonably well at the Yammas and Niyammas. (OK, I eat meat in moderation - oh well - score one down for Ahimsa if you count meat eating as harmful. We could all do better and things like environmental cost come in here too).
If we argue that the Commandments are listed in descending order of priority then I surely rank the worse of the worse, so worthy of punishment that the next 10 generations of my family are to be punished on my behalf too. Even murderers don't score as bad as I. According to the local evangelicals I'm doomed for hell anyway because even the best of the best non-Christian ranks in God's eyes far below a even a very sinful Christian. That is something I find quite nasty.
It's a very good job that the majority of Christians in this country are liberal and accept others. Some even take their kids to learn about other religions, show them festivals and places of worship for example.
There are some good statements in the 10 Commandments, but there are also good statements in the commandments or precepts of other religions.
We can say "Do not murder, do not steal" until we're blue in the face, but for it to work there has to be understanding of why these things are so. My religion places it in terms of cause and effect, both within and without, as well as empathy and compassion. "He is most blessed who sees the troubles of others as his own" or something like that. "We are all connected". In secular terms "We all share the same world".
I believe it would be valuable for children to look at these things from various points of view, various religious takes, even humanist takes on the subject. Try to understand _why_ we don't steal, don't kill, don't cheat. Combine this with taking a part in society and taking responsibility for the good of society and you have a recipe for success. That is more a subject for RE lessons perhaps, though assemblies could be part of it.
It does not demand worship, certainly not worship of a specific god that the children may or may not believe in and im cases like mine may be painfuly associated with the excesses of the evangelicals.
If we argue that the Commandments are listed in descending order of priority then I surely rank the worse of the worse, so worthy of punishment that the next 10 generations of my family are to be punished on my behalf too. Even murderers don't score as bad as I. According to the local evangelicals I'm doomed for hell anyway because even the best of the best non-Christian ranks in God's eyes far below a even a very sinful Christian. That is something I find quite nasty.
It's a very good job that the majority of Christians in this country are liberal and accept others. Some even take their kids to learn about other religions, show them festivals and places of worship for example.
There are some good statements in the 10 Commandments, but there are also good statements in the commandments or precepts of other religions.
We can say "Do not murder, do not steal" until we're blue in the face, but for it to work there has to be understanding of why these things are so. My religion places it in terms of cause and effect, both within and without, as well as empathy and compassion. "He is most blessed who sees the troubles of others as his own" or something like that. "We are all connected". In secular terms "We all share the same world".
I believe it would be valuable for children to look at these things from various points of view, various religious takes, even humanist takes on the subject. Try to understand _why_ we don't steal, don't kill, don't cheat. Combine this with taking a part in society and taking responsibility for the good of society and you have a recipe for success. That is more a subject for RE lessons perhaps, though assemblies could be part of it.
It does not demand worship, certainly not worship of a specific god that the children may or may not believe in and im cases like mine may be painfuly associated with the excesses of the evangelicals.
Posted by
andypfenton
July 07, 2010 at 13:34
Children - especially younger children - are unable to distinguish between material presented to them as fact and that of opinion. Religion is opinion and has no place in a secular society - requiring a religious act as part of education amounts to indoctrination as children are unable to decide objectively for themselves.
Posted by
andypfenton
July 07, 2010 at 13:34
Children - especially younger children - are unable to distinguish between material presented to them as fact and that of opinion. Religion is opinion and has no place in a secular society - requiring a religious act as part of education amounts to indoctrination as children are unable to decide objectively for themselves.
Posted by
andypfenton
July 07, 2010 at 13:36
Children - especially younger children - are unable to distinguish between material presented to them as fact and that of opinion. Religion is opinion and has no place in a secular society - requiring a religious act as part of education amounts to indoctrination as children are unable to decide objectively for themselves.
Posted by
michael2
July 07, 2010 at 14:21
I suspect it is true that the majority of State secondary schools without religious affiliations ignore the law which says they must hold daily acts of Christian worship and suffer nothing worse than a finger-wagging from Ofsted. If the Government is not prepared to enforce this ill=conceived law then isn't that a good reason for scrapping it?
Posted by
SDoleMelipone
July 07, 2010 at 14:55
The main problem is that collective worship is statutory on a daily basis (Education Reform Act 1988), which is not appropriate for all schools.
In 2004, even the HM Chief Inspector called for this law to be relaxed. It is not enforcible, with over three-quarters of schools not holding daily collective worship. Why not allow the heads and governers to decide the regularity of collective worship that is right for their school, while maintaining the rights of parents to remove their children from that worship?
In 2004, even the HM Chief Inspector called for this law to be relaxed. It is not enforcible, with over three-quarters of schools not holding daily collective worship. Why not allow the heads and governers to decide the regularity of collective worship that is right for their school, while maintaining the rights of parents to remove their children from that worship?
Posted by
happywanderer
July 07, 2010 at 16:12
Absolutely. This law is immoral in how it indoctrinates children and wasteful in that it squanders educational resources for no educational value
Posted by
UMPath
July 07, 2010 at 17:22
Teaching children that Medieval supertitions have value is wrong. If parents want to waste their children's time with religion they should do it out of school time.
Posted by
iwalker
July 07, 2010 at 21:05
I completely agree with this proposal. The issue simply begs the question: what is the purpose of our education system? I suggest that this can be broadly considered as follows:
To educate children. Simple enough.
Now, it is fairly obvious that we would all like this education to be as broad as possible: The goal being to develop practical and academic knowledge and skills; critical and analytical capabilities; social awareness and citizenship.
I fail to see where enforced* religious activity fits with the above. Citizenship and moral awareness can be discussed and taught without resorting to religious doctrine. Regular assemblies are of course useful to promote a sense of school community and for information sharing etc. But why have a religious aspect?
I feel it is correct that religious awareness should be taught within the broad syllabus, after all religion exists (even if God doesn't) and is a critical factor in the lives of many. We should not pretend otherwise. However I maintain that a religiously based assembly (whether Christian or otherwise) BY LAW should have no place in our modern secular society.
*It strikes me as somewhat incongruous to suggest that children can be opted out. Why should non-religious (and more specifically given the wording of the law non-Christian) children have to be singled out? There are many faith based schools that parents can select if they want their children's school time to be confused with church time.
The ever decreasing religious minority have every opportunity to indoctrinate their children from a young age at home and in their churches (or equivalent). Can someone please explain to me why the state in the form of our schools should be expected to reinforce and thereby sponsor this teaching?
Like many other parents commenting here I have been placed in a very difficult position because of this particular issue. I also assumed that only faith-based schools would have a religious tone and was amazed to find that it is a legal requirement in every school. Living in Northern Ireland I wanted to send my child to a school where religion could be left at the door. I erroneously believed that 'state' schools would deliver this - but no. Every state school in Northern Ireland has a member of the (almost exclusively Protestant) clergy on the school board, and the same law as discussed here exists. By and large 'Protestant' children go to state schools and 'Catholic' children go to Catholic schools maintained by the Catholic church. We can all see how well that has helped deliver a broad sense of community and harmony here over the last 40 years!
NI also offers 'integrated' schools which try to keep everyone happy, but not it seems the non-religious as these schools also have to maintain this absurd religious assembly. Unfortunately these schools are even more bizarre in their nature. They are the only schools in NI which ask the parent to declare their religion on the application form. Difficult for me to answer that accurately as my 4 year old daughter has not really had the chance to fully explore her theistic options. How do these schools fare academically? Not well. Too much time spent discussing and understanding each others' traditions (i.e. religions).
The point here is that it is simply impossible for me to send my child to a school that does not have a religious bias.
We can perhaps reflect on one final point. I'm sure we can all agree that the measure of any law is it's actual value? In other words a law should only exist if it demonstrates some advantage versus its absence ...
I am open to any well considered explanations of why there is demonstrable benefit in having religious content in school assemblies. By this I mean just one real (and reasoned) benefit which could not equally by derived from well organised non-religious assemblies that all children could fully participate in.
....
Added note. Reading through this discussion some of those against the proposal seem to be concerned that 'Christian children' should not have atheism imposed upon them and that atheism is somehow a belief system. Atheism is irrelevant in this discussion. No-one is saying that any or all children should be forced to be atheist. The problem is that under current law every child has to be exposed to religious doctrine in what most enlightened people feel should be a completely neutral environment.
There is no such thing as an atheist service or an atheist activity. Atheism is nothing more than a rational absence of belief in God. Christians / Jews / Muslims are atheist when it comes to more than 99% of the World's proposed Gods. True atheists just go one God further (paraphrased from Richard Dawkins).
I do not personally like religion and I feel that it has a negative impact on society. However I fully support the freedom to practice any religion without prejudice from others but when it comes to school leave your religion at the door. Don't force my children to listen to your particular brand of medieval rantings in school and I won't ask you to teach logic and evidence based science in your place of worship.
To educate children. Simple enough.
Now, it is fairly obvious that we would all like this education to be as broad as possible: The goal being to develop practical and academic knowledge and skills; critical and analytical capabilities; social awareness and citizenship.
I fail to see where enforced* religious activity fits with the above. Citizenship and moral awareness can be discussed and taught without resorting to religious doctrine. Regular assemblies are of course useful to promote a sense of school community and for information sharing etc. But why have a religious aspect?
I feel it is correct that religious awareness should be taught within the broad syllabus, after all religion exists (even if God doesn't) and is a critical factor in the lives of many. We should not pretend otherwise. However I maintain that a religiously based assembly (whether Christian or otherwise) BY LAW should have no place in our modern secular society.
*It strikes me as somewhat incongruous to suggest that children can be opted out. Why should non-religious (and more specifically given the wording of the law non-Christian) children have to be singled out? There are many faith based schools that parents can select if they want their children's school time to be confused with church time.
The ever decreasing religious minority have every opportunity to indoctrinate their children from a young age at home and in their churches (or equivalent). Can someone please explain to me why the state in the form of our schools should be expected to reinforce and thereby sponsor this teaching?
Like many other parents commenting here I have been placed in a very difficult position because of this particular issue. I also assumed that only faith-based schools would have a religious tone and was amazed to find that it is a legal requirement in every school. Living in Northern Ireland I wanted to send my child to a school where religion could be left at the door. I erroneously believed that 'state' schools would deliver this - but no. Every state school in Northern Ireland has a member of the (almost exclusively Protestant) clergy on the school board, and the same law as discussed here exists. By and large 'Protestant' children go to state schools and 'Catholic' children go to Catholic schools maintained by the Catholic church. We can all see how well that has helped deliver a broad sense of community and harmony here over the last 40 years!
NI also offers 'integrated' schools which try to keep everyone happy, but not it seems the non-religious as these schools also have to maintain this absurd religious assembly. Unfortunately these schools are even more bizarre in their nature. They are the only schools in NI which ask the parent to declare their religion on the application form. Difficult for me to answer that accurately as my 4 year old daughter has not really had the chance to fully explore her theistic options. How do these schools fare academically? Not well. Too much time spent discussing and understanding each others' traditions (i.e. religions).
The point here is that it is simply impossible for me to send my child to a school that does not have a religious bias.
We can perhaps reflect on one final point. I'm sure we can all agree that the measure of any law is it's actual value? In other words a law should only exist if it demonstrates some advantage versus its absence ...
I am open to any well considered explanations of why there is demonstrable benefit in having religious content in school assemblies. By this I mean just one real (and reasoned) benefit which could not equally by derived from well organised non-religious assemblies that all children could fully participate in.
....
Added note. Reading through this discussion some of those against the proposal seem to be concerned that 'Christian children' should not have atheism imposed upon them and that atheism is somehow a belief system. Atheism is irrelevant in this discussion. No-one is saying that any or all children should be forced to be atheist. The problem is that under current law every child has to be exposed to religious doctrine in what most enlightened people feel should be a completely neutral environment.
There is no such thing as an atheist service or an atheist activity. Atheism is nothing more than a rational absence of belief in God. Christians / Jews / Muslims are atheist when it comes to more than 99% of the World's proposed Gods. True atheists just go one God further (paraphrased from Richard Dawkins).
I do not personally like religion and I feel that it has a negative impact on society. However I fully support the freedom to practice any religion without prejudice from others but when it comes to school leave your religion at the door. Don't force my children to listen to your particular brand of medieval rantings in school and I won't ask you to teach logic and evidence based science in your place of worship.
Posted by
iwalker
July 07, 2010 at 21:29
@ biblewinsciencefail ...
I can only smile on reading your comments. At first I wanted to counter your spurious 'reasoning' point by point but then I realised that I should thank you on behalf of the huge balance of believers and non-believers who see the fairness in ending this pointless law. Your shallow and revisionist rant has provided one of the strongest arguments in favour of this excellent proposition.
Have fun with your God stuff, I hope it helps you lead a good and fulfilling life. I somehow manage to treat my fellow humans with a level of equality and respect often missed by the religiously persuaded but I will nontheless try not to impose my open minded and humanist perspective on your children. I'd therefore thank you not to impose your archaic belief system on my children and we can hopefully all get along. I'll also thank the state for not trying to force my children into your folly.
I can only smile on reading your comments. At first I wanted to counter your spurious 'reasoning' point by point but then I realised that I should thank you on behalf of the huge balance of believers and non-believers who see the fairness in ending this pointless law. Your shallow and revisionist rant has provided one of the strongest arguments in favour of this excellent proposition.
Have fun with your God stuff, I hope it helps you lead a good and fulfilling life. I somehow manage to treat my fellow humans with a level of equality and respect often missed by the religiously persuaded but I will nontheless try not to impose my open minded and humanist perspective on your children. I'd therefore thank you not to impose your archaic belief system on my children and we can hopefully all get along. I'll also thank the state for not trying to force my children into your folly.
Posted by
stephenhammett
July 07, 2010 at 21:31
While there is value is learning about the beliefs of different religious groups, along with the concepts of atheism & agnosticism, so that children may get a better understanding of how these beliefs affect people's lives & actions, and thus discourage prejudice, it should be down to the individual to make their own decision about what they believe. The daily act of collective worship does not sit comfortably with this concept; effectively one belief system is being given precedence. Moral issues could still be covered perfectly well in assemblies without having to connect them to religious worship.
Posted by
alan12345
July 07, 2010 at 22:09
I totally agree with this idea
Posted by
nickwood23
July 08, 2010 at 04:15
If only it was compulsory - children need to develop devotion, they need boundaries they can eventually kick against, they are not adults, there is no choice, we have to provide that choice, otherwise they will never be able to think for themselves, as amply demonstrated by most of the comments here. A perfect example of "The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions". If you want an unthinking populace of sheeple, mouthing unthoughts then go ahead and remove all meaning from children's lives. A definite NO.
Posted by
redjcuob
July 08, 2010 at 11:15
School should be secular.
Posted by
cmc2010
July 08, 2010 at 11:45
Totally agree. To be brought up under the assumption that we're all christian is to assume we are all the same and not respect other's differences. Both irresponsible and offensive.
Posted by
RichardJC
July 08, 2010 at 13:03
@nickwood23 - I find it hard to understand what you're arguing - that we should enforce worship on the basis that learning to reject it is an important step in the child's development? That sounds counter to what I expect Christians want out of the worship, and also does not solve the problem that some of these children come from families with completely different beliefs.
Posted by
iwalker
July 08, 2010 at 13:16
@nickwood23 ...
From reading the comments posted I think that virtually no-one here is arguing that children should not be taught about religion in school. Religion is an important force (for good and bad - we can argue about the balance) within societies around the World and therefore is an essential area to include within education. There is however a big difference between teaching children about different religions in a RE context and the state actually expecting / forcing them to participate in group worship (hymns prayers etc.). It is this latter aspect which I strongly object to. At the very least such activity should be opt-in not opt-out. I personally feel there is no place for religion within school other than in a comparative and analytical discussion, best catered for in specific RE classes.
It's also really sad that you suggest religion (and I suppose you mean YOUR specific brand of religion) is the only way to find meaning in life. If feeling that you are here for the sole purpose of worshiping an invisible dictator in the sky who will subject non-believers to eternal torment I'm happy enough for you to get on with it. However neither you, nor the state has any right to impose these horror filled fairytales on my (open minded and thinking) children.
It is offensive for you to suggest that religion is somehow a prerequisite for a moral and just society. Let me be very clear on this. As a Christian (or any other religious practitioner) you have no right to assume any moral superiority or precedence over me as an atheist, or anyone else. I will not claim to speak for the wide atheist Diaspora but I can speak for myself. I lead a good life and treat all of my fellow animals with dignity and respect. I happily follow the laws of our state and believe I am a contributing member of society. I have two wonderful caring and well rounded children full of confidence, joy and aspiration. If I see someone in need I will help them, regardless of their race or religious persuasion. I try to be truthful and honest in my dealings. Sometimes I do get things wrong but I try to learn from my mistakes to make me a better person. None of this is because of any irrational theistic belief or because a non-existent God has whispered promises in my ear.
Your argument that without religion we would have no morals suggests that we are only good because of religion. This is incredible arrogance and also rather worrying. It suggests that without the constraints of your faith-based set of rules you would be out raping and pillaging. Scary stuff indeed. Fortunately I, and most of my fellow citizens, don't need the omnipresent threat of a jealous and vengeful mythical bogey man to make us behave ourselves. I wish it was only history that was riddled with examples of cruelty and destruction inflicted in the name of various religions. Unfortunately one need only open a newspaper to see the evils that it still incites. (Please don’t tell me that this is only other religions and that yours is different – all are guilty of crimes beyond description).
I suggest that you just lift your eyes from your mistranslated ancient works of fiction and actually look at the beauty and wonder that is our natural universe. There is enough out there to create genuine awe and inspiration without having to make up any divine beings.
Be good for goodness sake, not for God's sake.
From reading the comments posted I think that virtually no-one here is arguing that children should not be taught about religion in school. Religion is an important force (for good and bad - we can argue about the balance) within societies around the World and therefore is an essential area to include within education. There is however a big difference between teaching children about different religions in a RE context and the state actually expecting / forcing them to participate in group worship (hymns prayers etc.). It is this latter aspect which I strongly object to. At the very least such activity should be opt-in not opt-out. I personally feel there is no place for religion within school other than in a comparative and analytical discussion, best catered for in specific RE classes.
It's also really sad that you suggest religion (and I suppose you mean YOUR specific brand of religion) is the only way to find meaning in life. If feeling that you are here for the sole purpose of worshiping an invisible dictator in the sky who will subject non-believers to eternal torment I'm happy enough for you to get on with it. However neither you, nor the state has any right to impose these horror filled fairytales on my (open minded and thinking) children.
It is offensive for you to suggest that religion is somehow a prerequisite for a moral and just society. Let me be very clear on this. As a Christian (or any other religious practitioner) you have no right to assume any moral superiority or precedence over me as an atheist, or anyone else. I will not claim to speak for the wide atheist Diaspora but I can speak for myself. I lead a good life and treat all of my fellow animals with dignity and respect. I happily follow the laws of our state and believe I am a contributing member of society. I have two wonderful caring and well rounded children full of confidence, joy and aspiration. If I see someone in need I will help them, regardless of their race or religious persuasion. I try to be truthful and honest in my dealings. Sometimes I do get things wrong but I try to learn from my mistakes to make me a better person. None of this is because of any irrational theistic belief or because a non-existent God has whispered promises in my ear.
Your argument that without religion we would have no morals suggests that we are only good because of religion. This is incredible arrogance and also rather worrying. It suggests that without the constraints of your faith-based set of rules you would be out raping and pillaging. Scary stuff indeed. Fortunately I, and most of my fellow citizens, don't need the omnipresent threat of a jealous and vengeful mythical bogey man to make us behave ourselves. I wish it was only history that was riddled with examples of cruelty and destruction inflicted in the name of various religions. Unfortunately one need only open a newspaper to see the evils that it still incites. (Please don’t tell me that this is only other religions and that yours is different – all are guilty of crimes beyond description).
I suggest that you just lift your eyes from your mistranslated ancient works of fiction and actually look at the beauty and wonder that is our natural universe. There is enough out there to create genuine awe and inspiration without having to make up any divine beings.
Be good for goodness sake, not for God's sake.
Posted by
idmaer
July 08, 2010 at 13:58
It is extraordinary that this appalling law and practice survives. "Worship" has no place at all in government schools.
Posted by
ChuckRock
July 08, 2010 at 15:31
Its a Christian Biased country.
From the drug laws which accept only the "Christian" sacrament.
To the teaching of "the big bang" in a RE Class as a plausible model for the universe.(Alpha , Omega)
Its ALL TAINTED WITH CHRISTIAN BELIEF.
If it matches what Christianity believes, then it must be right!
I could go on for hours, its all around you.
Open your eyes
And yes our Children are forced to swallow this crap on a daily basis.
Personally i would make every church & Religion setup in this country pay TAX like any other business, lets see how long they last.
If they actually taught TRUE history on how all the dogmas of the church were formed.
Then we wouldn't be having this debate.
Fairy tales and lies, All of it.
Baseless blind beliefs that have no place in modern society as a whole and definitely NOT Schools or education.
From the drug laws which accept only the "Christian" sacrament.
To the teaching of "the big bang" in a RE Class as a plausible model for the universe.(Alpha , Omega)
Its ALL TAINTED WITH CHRISTIAN BELIEF.
If it matches what Christianity believes, then it must be right!
I could go on for hours, its all around you.
Open your eyes
And yes our Children are forced to swallow this crap on a daily basis.
Personally i would make every church & Religion setup in this country pay TAX like any other business, lets see how long they last.
If they actually taught TRUE history on how all the dogmas of the church were formed.
Then we wouldn't be having this debate.
Fairy tales and lies, All of it.
Baseless blind beliefs that have no place in modern society as a whole and definitely NOT Schools or education.
Posted by
Truthhound
July 08, 2010 at 15:33
The people who vote for this are likely to vote for closing grammar schools.
Posted by
Truthhound
July 08, 2010 at 15:33
The people who vote for this are likely to vote for closing grammar schools.
Posted by
iwalker
July 08, 2010 at 15:53
@Truthhound...
I can't speak for anyone else but I would thank you not to make assumptions about my opinions. Even if you were correct your preposition would not change the untenable nature of the law we are trying to revoke.
Sorry, but I don't see the connection between grammar schools and this topic. For what's it's worth you are wrong in your assumption at least in my case. I want this law repealed because it is unjust, biased and promotes religion which I recognise as nothing more than a divisive and dangerous rhetoric filled relic. Worship your God all you like but don't ask my kids to join in at school.
To answer your 'charge' I can declare myself agnostic on the issue of (English) grammar schools as I do not know enough about the topic.
Regarding grammar schools where I live (Northern Ireland) we do need a fairer system than we have had but this should be achieved by bring all schools up to the level of grammars; not bring grammars down to the level of the typical state school.
I can't speak for anyone else but I would thank you not to make assumptions about my opinions. Even if you were correct your preposition would not change the untenable nature of the law we are trying to revoke.
Sorry, but I don't see the connection between grammar schools and this topic. For what's it's worth you are wrong in your assumption at least in my case. I want this law repealed because it is unjust, biased and promotes religion which I recognise as nothing more than a divisive and dangerous rhetoric filled relic. Worship your God all you like but don't ask my kids to join in at school.
To answer your 'charge' I can declare myself agnostic on the issue of (English) grammar schools as I do not know enough about the topic.
Regarding grammar schools where I live (Northern Ireland) we do need a fairer system than we have had but this should be achieved by bring all schools up to the level of grammars; not bring grammars down to the level of the typical state school.
Posted by
pjtavener
July 08, 2010 at 16:58
I can't see why in this day and age there is any objection to removing the outdated requirement for "collective worship" in schools. Its a complete nonsense. If there was no such law and someone came up with the idea today there is no way it would become law. The only things holding up its removal are inertia and tradition
Posted by
MrsArcanum
July 08, 2010 at 22:51
Just on a slightly lighter note.
Our former Grammar School was founded (and still gets some funding) by local grocers. Hardly the religious founding some might expect. :?
Our former Grammar School was founded (and still gets some funding) by local grocers. Hardly the religious founding some might expect. :?
Posted by
bevsan
July 09, 2010 at 06:20
I've seen a few people quote the '72%' figure for the proportion of Christians in this country. People should be aware that that figure comes from the 2001 census, and there are issues with how it was derived. See http://www.humanism.org.uk/campaigns/census-2011 for details.
I remember as a teenager having to fill in forms and answer the 'religion' question. I didn't know what to put, so I asked my mother who said "oh, just tick Christian". I continued to do that until I was in my thirties, without really thinking about it. Many people do the same, despite never having been near a church since childhood. I will encourage my own children to think about it a bit more before they answer.
I remember as a teenager having to fill in forms and answer the 'religion' question. I didn't know what to put, so I asked my mother who said "oh, just tick Christian". I continued to do that until I was in my thirties, without really thinking about it. Many people do the same, despite never having been near a church since childhood. I will encourage my own children to think about it a bit more before they answer.
Posted by
bitterntwisted
July 09, 2010 at 12:50
In my opinion no school should teach any single religion let alone hold collective worship for a single faith. With our multicultural society we are doing our kids an injustice if their education doesnt include objective knowledge of all religions, or at least the majority of them. Religious worship has no place in schools.
Posted by
Nsowon
July 09, 2010 at 12:55
Religion has no place in schools. I would go further and outlaw religious schools in the UK.
Posted by
rosa
July 09, 2010 at 16:23
Children are far too young to be able to decide for themselves whether or not they want to be religious. Hence, "religious schools" and "collective worship" came into being - a way for parents to indoctrinate children at a younger and younger age, and furthermore legitimise such a practice. This does NOT have a place in a country where everyone (note, children are also people(!)) should be allowed to choose their own opinions and beliefs, NOT the parents / other adults.
Posted by
nickphook
July 10, 2010 at 10:01
Who or what are the children supposed to be worshipping. Some mythical figure from the dark ages of human history ?
Lets get into the modern era of science and rational thought please.
Lets get into the modern era of science and rational thought please.
Posted by
masayume
July 10, 2010 at 15:22
While a lot of people are discussing science vs religion this is an argument doomed to fail.
Lets instead be rational about this. We are living in a day and age where people have different beliefs. There are multiple religious flavours, there are atheists, agnostics, and people that just classify themselves as spiritual, but non religious (religion and spirituality should not be confused as being the same).
So on that basis, it is wrong to enforce a collective worship when a) we cant agree on any one religion to worship, b) we cant agree if religion should be worshipped in the first place.
Religion, at it's core, is simply a collection of stories that are supposed to be a basis for an individual's life. They teach you morals. That's it. People then go crazy and start interpreting it literally (what's funny is that everyone seems to interpret the same text in a different way and the same sentence somehow can be used as an explanation in just about any context that's being argued), creating power hierarchies etc... So why not stop confusing kids (who are curious by design and hence will always want to know answers to questions which from a religious context cannot be explained) and simply just hold assemblies that discuss morals and general life stuff. I dont want to sing hymns about baby jesus. I hated it in school and most people i knew did too. Pretty much all of us would mess around and make up "alternative" lyrics. From a childs perspective it's stupid to expect them to take this stuff seriously and actually understand it. Which is why religion should be left as something a person can grow into rather than being brought up with.
Lets instead be rational about this. We are living in a day and age where people have different beliefs. There are multiple religious flavours, there are atheists, agnostics, and people that just classify themselves as spiritual, but non religious (religion and spirituality should not be confused as being the same).
So on that basis, it is wrong to enforce a collective worship when a) we cant agree on any one religion to worship, b) we cant agree if religion should be worshipped in the first place.
Religion, at it's core, is simply a collection of stories that are supposed to be a basis for an individual's life. They teach you morals. That's it. People then go crazy and start interpreting it literally (what's funny is that everyone seems to interpret the same text in a different way and the same sentence somehow can be used as an explanation in just about any context that's being argued), creating power hierarchies etc... So why not stop confusing kids (who are curious by design and hence will always want to know answers to questions which from a religious context cannot be explained) and simply just hold assemblies that discuss morals and general life stuff. I dont want to sing hymns about baby jesus. I hated it in school and most people i knew did too. Pretty much all of us would mess around and make up "alternative" lyrics. From a childs perspective it's stupid to expect them to take this stuff seriously and actually understand it. Which is why religion should be left as something a person can grow into rather than being brought up with.
Posted by
CGeorge
July 10, 2010 at 18:49
All children should be protected from all forms of child abuse including religious indoctrination. The children of parents who wish to subject their children to indoctrination are entitled to protection.
Posted by
MrsArcanum
July 10, 2010 at 22:22
Would add to CGeorge's comment, the current law could easily promote victimisation and peer cruelty. All this in the name of Christianity.
Posted by
FightTheTyranny
July 11, 2010 at 00:46
Eradicate all religion in schools. It's not a place for proselytisation, but for free thinking and an exploration of the intellect. Leave religion and superstition in the middle ages where it belongs.
Posted by
MrsArcanum
July 11, 2010 at 13:56
Removing the regularly flouted rule of daily compulsory worship (of a broadly Christian nature) would go some way to even up the balance of belief and bring the law in line with reality.
This is a simple and reasonable suggestion and should not be derailed by other issues regarding funding and faith schools.
This is a simple and reasonable suggestion and should not be derailed by other issues regarding funding and faith schools.
Posted by
leroybasslines
July 11, 2010 at 15:56
I've been thinking this through and I think that I am in favour of changing the law on enforcing daily worship. However, I am still shocked at the vitriol directed at religion by some of the people on this site. I think allowing that kind of thinking to lead a change like this is frightening and dangerous. Many have said that schools should be about fact and not superstition, that academia and science are incompatible with discussion on faiths. A cursory glance at the entire of human history would prove this to be untrue. Take a look at this list of Christian scientists: http://en.wikipedia.org/[…]/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science. And I haven't even begun to list the Muslim minds that have contributed to mathematics and science, let alone those of other faiths.
So, yes we need to look again at the enforcement of Christian worship. And yes, organised religion has not always been a good example of what having faith means. But it is an intrinsic part of our community and needs to be studied. Extremism and intolerance, whether religious or secular, must be discussed and opposed at every turn. We should change the law to increase freedom for schools to reflect their communities (NOT the prejudices of religious or non-religious teachers) and we should do it out of common sense and NOT out of spite or hatred.
Britain is supposed to be a famously tolerant society. I believe that it is, but we need to work hard to maintain it whether we are Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Humanists, Atheists or whatever.
So, yes we need to look again at the enforcement of Christian worship. And yes, organised religion has not always been a good example of what having faith means. But it is an intrinsic part of our community and needs to be studied. Extremism and intolerance, whether religious or secular, must be discussed and opposed at every turn. We should change the law to increase freedom for schools to reflect their communities (NOT the prejudices of religious or non-religious teachers) and we should do it out of common sense and NOT out of spite or hatred.
Britain is supposed to be a famously tolerant society. I believe that it is, but we need to work hard to maintain it whether we are Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Humanists, Atheists or whatever.
Posted by
algarratt
July 11, 2010 at 16:18
my 10 year old son was threatened with punishment in school if he did not join in and pray!! After a meeting with the Head we comprimised that children would be asked to bow their heads in thought and my son would able able to reflect on the ideas suggested by the vicar. He told me he thinks they're all rubbish! The Head told me they had to teach the reception class how to pray. What does that tell you? None of them do it at home so why should they in school? Comlpet waste of time and MY money
Posted by
akennedy
July 11, 2010 at 21:42
How would christians feel if the law dictated that their children were made to undertake rituals at school aimed at making them atheists! We should be tolerant of each others differences rather than imposing our views on other people. I find many christian stories offensive not just ridiculous and the idea of worship in schools is not just archaic but it is brainwashing. This is not a benign law. It needs scrapped. Collective singing, morality etc can be done in other styles of assemblies.
Posted by
kenluzley
July 12, 2010 at 16:33
I agree.
It is equally important for those from no-faith/atheist backgrounds as those from other-than-christian religious backgrounds.
Social responsibility and "group bonding" can easily be done in assemblies without evoking religious ideas, thus separating secular education from religious ideas (which can if needed be provided by religious organisations outside schools).
It is equally important for those from no-faith/atheist backgrounds as those from other-than-christian religious backgrounds.
Social responsibility and "group bonding" can easily be done in assemblies without evoking religious ideas, thus separating secular education from religious ideas (which can if needed be provided by religious organisations outside schools).
Posted by
PatrickMM
July 12, 2010 at 21:53
religion is a private matter it should not be forced on students
Posted by
pjm65
July 12, 2010 at 22:56
This law has to go, it is from the dark ages.
Posted by
sbiddle
July 13, 2010 at 12:15
I agree with this but would go further and say that all state funded schools should be secular. The current system allows for all sorts of manipulation of admissions, which is highly divisive within communities and often manipulated by parents who want to segregate their children for social or religious reasons. As a multi faith society we should be creating an education system that encourages children to live together and respect different belief systems. As an atheist I'd like my own belief system to be given equal status.
Posted by
bryanlomax
July 13, 2010 at 13:34
Collective atheism is a form of child abuse.
Posted by
christopher
July 13, 2010 at 16:33
@bryanlomax
would you care to provide evidence for your argument?
would you care to provide evidence for your argument?
Posted by
krisology
July 13, 2010 at 18:59
Completely agree. I would also like to say that faith schools should also be scrapped. In modern society we need to be together more not be more separate.
Posted by
KirstyKoo
July 13, 2010 at 23:27
The school my children attend runs an informal tea an cake afternoon once a month to facilitate open discussion on the practices within the school and just about anything else we can think of. At one of these discussions this very topic came up...I pointed out that as an Atheist found it inappropriate that my kids get force fed religious education, the teacher leading the discussion told us that in the final year of the teaching degree the potential teachers have to sign to say that they will teach religion or basically they do not get their qualification!!! This practice is surely archaic and has no place in a modern and diverse society. I live in Scotland so I am unsure if this is the case in the rest of the UK but it needs to be abolished ASAP! It makes me so angry that I my children are being taught a subject that we as a family have no interest in. If I wanted my kids to have religion in their lives I would go to church as most people of faith do, compounding the argument that it is not necessary to teach it in school!
Posted by
awake
July 15, 2010 at 02:58
Quote: Why the contribution is important: "collective worship is almost indoctrinating children, telling them that these ideas are correct without argument. religion should be caught subjectivly to allow children to make up their own minds".
Much like science and scientific theories are taught!, which are often proved to be wrong at a later date and I don't recall any arguments going on with our science teacher, unless one was looking for detention after school, or low grades because we didn't believe him.
Example: We are going to be living in a new ice age by the year 2000! as taught to my age group in junior schools across the country, oh really sir!.
And I was soo looking forward to living in an igloo! :(
Now I hear that we are all going to be warmed to death or something similar, unless we all buy green light bulbs full of mercury to save the plant, what with all the global warming an all!.... or are we !?! hmmm "quick make as much money out of it as you can before they all find out!".
Looks like you got the entire atheist brigade from youtube over here to vote on this one lol, I'm soo going to tell the Christians!.
On a more positive note: morning assembly used to have a calming effect on me as a child and not much else did :D I always had a respect for it, as did most of the other children, apart from the odd rebellious atheist, who always seemed to get really angry during hymn time and would start ripping up all of the hymn books that he could get his hands on and throw them all over then place!, he later went on to be involved in the occult funnily enough, or not, still is as far as I know, so the Christian part didn't seem to worry him, apart from going mental at hymn time, he believed what he wanted to.
So NO!, I say keep Christian worship in morning Assembly and I believe that you will also keep some respect and discipline in our schools.
Much like science and scientific theories are taught!, which are often proved to be wrong at a later date and I don't recall any arguments going on with our science teacher, unless one was looking for detention after school, or low grades because we didn't believe him.
Example: We are going to be living in a new ice age by the year 2000! as taught to my age group in junior schools across the country, oh really sir!.
And I was soo looking forward to living in an igloo! :(
Now I hear that we are all going to be warmed to death or something similar, unless we all buy green light bulbs full of mercury to save the plant, what with all the global warming an all!.... or are we !?! hmmm "quick make as much money out of it as you can before they all find out!".
Looks like you got the entire atheist brigade from youtube over here to vote on this one lol, I'm soo going to tell the Christians!.
On a more positive note: morning assembly used to have a calming effect on me as a child and not much else did :D I always had a respect for it, as did most of the other children, apart from the odd rebellious atheist, who always seemed to get really angry during hymn time and would start ripping up all of the hymn books that he could get his hands on and throw them all over then place!, he later went on to be involved in the occult funnily enough, or not, still is as far as I know, so the Christian part didn't seem to worry him, apart from going mental at hymn time, he believed what he wanted to.
So NO!, I say keep Christian worship in morning Assembly and I believe that you will also keep some respect and discipline in our schools.
Posted by
mphadland
July 15, 2010 at 08:39
i still can't believe this is going on , i read a news story in the past year that alerted me to the problem , where parents were told they could exclude there kids from worship , they could come in late or sit in another class room, i believe , as the parents in this news report said , that by excluding them from one part of what the other kids do , could exclude them from playground activities etc if the other kids felt they were different , quite likely as not having to go through all that worship stuff would seem like a big privilege. this was all in reference to a "non-faith" school . contradictions! if i send my child to a non faith school , i expect it to be just that , and expect no worship of any kind. just as if i sent them to a Muslim ,Sikh or christian school i would expect them to worship in the style of the religion of the religion of the school , and no other.
Posted by
MrsArcanum
July 15, 2010 at 09:07
The law is out of touch with reality. Senior schools in particular have basic logistical problems holding assemblies. One local one only holds 2 assemblies per year & religion (of any faith) only shows up in RE lessons. Yet the pastoral care at this school is superb. Every effort is made to ensure children are not excluded by lack of ability or emotional or physical problems. This level of inclusion is what schools should be aiming for. Not worrying about whether they are breaking the law.
Posted by
HaroldGough
July 15, 2010 at 13:07
There is a lot of confusion in comments here, and in similar threads, between the imposition of an act of worship at the beginning of the school day and teaching about religion as an academic subject.
Teaching to promote understanding is one thing but indoctrination with organised superstition (a logical definition which cannot be disproved) is quite another and has no place in democracy.
Teaching to promote understanding is one thing but indoctrination with organised superstition (a logical definition which cannot be disproved) is quite another and has no place in democracy.
Posted by
bilbo
July 15, 2010 at 13:20
religion is mostly mumbo-jumbo, medieval jiggerypokery and not a little violence.
bannish them all from all schools and leave it to young people to learn at their own rate and make up their own minds.
bannish them all from all schools and leave it to young people to learn at their own rate and make up their own minds.
Posted by
RichardJC
July 16, 2010 at 12:53
Looking at reports about the latest crime statistics it seems that this is not so "Broken Britain" after all. The volunteering statistics are also very good. Reading articles about regulation in the past it seems that even the 70s and 80s were not so rosy.
Why is that relevant here? Because one of the arguments that seems to come up for these assemblies that without them we'll see moral decay. Despite the fact that many schools now break the law we don't seem to be getting the moral decay.
Why is that relevant here? Because one of the arguments that seems to come up for these assemblies that without them we'll see moral decay. Despite the fact that many schools now break the law we don't seem to be getting the moral decay.
Posted by
DavidMackenzie
July 22, 2010 at 01:27
Agree 100%. People should take responsibility for their beliefs should they choose to seek them out - not be indoctrinated.
Posted by
lucyyates
July 22, 2010 at 16:35
I completely agree. My children are not old enough to be in school yet, but I do not want them to be told fairy stories about some mythical being as if it is fact, by teachers that they will look up to and respect (and therefore believe).
Posted by
happytwinkle
July 22, 2010 at 19:53
Posted by
DPF
July 22, 2010 at 22:57
@happytwinkle - you've missed the point.
This item is about enforced daily collective worship in non-faith schools.
This item is about enforced daily collective worship in non-faith schools.
Posted by
RichardJC
July 23, 2010 at 17:54
HappyTwinkle - you've posted the link to a few threads. As answered in the "Abolish Faith Schools" thread:
The article in the Independant is interesting, though it seems to place the credit on the rules and rigour of the school not its faith. I also went to a school that was quite strict, including things like standing when a teacher entered the room. It went downhill when that headmistress left and it became less strict, but has since recovered under a new headmaster. The school was and still is secular not faith based.
The article in the Independant is interesting, though it seems to place the credit on the rules and rigour of the school not its faith. I also went to a school that was quite strict, including things like standing when a teacher entered the room. It went downhill when that headmistress left and it became less strict, but has since recovered under a new headmaster. The school was and still is secular not faith based.
Posted by
ChinapplePunks
July 26, 2010 at 19:53
Apart from the almost incoherent phrasing, I agree with this proposal.
It's not about being anti-Christian or anti anyone, just about removing compulsion in matters of faith.
By all means have chaplains, a quiet room/multifaith chapel, religious things *available*, but it is wrong to compel all children to attend them.
As a national law it's even worse -if some schools wish to have collective religious assemblies, fair enough as long as the parents and kids choosing that school have a free choice and realistic alternatives.
This law is probably illegal under the UK's treaty commitment to the UN Declaration on the Rights of the Child that makes freedom of religion a right for children, as well as adults.
The reason this law should be removed is not anti-Christianity or New Atheism, but simply respect for religious freedom -including of children.
I would prefer to not only remove the legislation in favour of religious assemblies in all schools but to enforce our international treaty commitments on the Human Rights of children to hold different beliefs or no beliefs independently of their parents. Children are treated by the law as custodial property of their parents, not as autonomous human beings with rights of their own, and that's wrong, in general, not only on religious freedom issues.
It's not about being anti-Christian or anti anyone, just about removing compulsion in matters of faith.
By all means have chaplains, a quiet room/multifaith chapel, religious things *available*, but it is wrong to compel all children to attend them.
As a national law it's even worse -if some schools wish to have collective religious assemblies, fair enough as long as the parents and kids choosing that school have a free choice and realistic alternatives.
This law is probably illegal under the UK's treaty commitment to the UN Declaration on the Rights of the Child that makes freedom of religion a right for children, as well as adults.
The reason this law should be removed is not anti-Christianity or New Atheism, but simply respect for religious freedom -including of children.
I would prefer to not only remove the legislation in favour of religious assemblies in all schools but to enforce our international treaty commitments on the Human Rights of children to hold different beliefs or no beliefs independently of their parents. Children are treated by the law as custodial property of their parents, not as autonomous human beings with rights of their own, and that's wrong, in general, not only on religious freedom issues.
Posted by
GrayEm
July 26, 2010 at 21:56
I agree that the religion of darwinism should be kept out of our schools.
Posted by
christopher
July 27, 2010 at 11:48
@ GrayEm
Should the religion of Christianity be kept out of schools?
(I think most people here will ignore your description of scientific fact as a religion)
Should the religion of Christianity be kept out of schools?
(I think most people here will ignore your description of scientific fact as a religion)
Posted by
cbest
July 27, 2010 at 16:03
I am twelve years old and have nearly completed my first year at secondary school. I attend a non-religious school and also attended a non- religious primary school. However at the end of every primary school assembly everyone was made to say a prayer. When I was younger I never thought twice about and just did it, the words meant nothing to me, but it was customary. However as I grew more aware of what I was saying I began to mime the words because I just felt that I was lying to myself if I didn’t. But it wasn’t just me that did this; the prayer could always be heard the loudest wherever the youngest children were sat because they were just as oblivious to the words as I had once been. As time went by I didn’t even bother to mime, I always thought if a teacher spotted me I would tell them exactly what I thought of the situation. I used to be a school councillor as well and really wanted to discuss it there but I never really had the guts to do so. That is why I am relieved that we don’t do anything like that at my secondary school, because I would only have to endure the same process. At my school we study religion and have mostly looked at Judaism this year. I know for a fact that at the local Catholic school they mostly only learn about Christianity, I think that this is wrong and children should be taught about all sorts of religions so they can have an open mind. I would hate it if from an early age it was drilled into my head what religion I must follow. My parents are both Atheists and told me that I can be whatever religion I wanted to be, as long as I believe in it, not just because it explains things but because I think it’s the right way of life. I think every child should have that opportunity. Most of my friends went to that local Catholic school after primary. I think it is disgusting that friends are spilt up because of their religion. I also know that the majority of those people are not religious and have pulled strings because they are under the impression that it is a better school. Even though I have not attended that school I would have to disagree, I feel that I have exceeded anything I could have achieved anywhere else.
Posted by
Bakunin
July 27, 2010 at 17:14
I would hate it if it were drilled into my head what religion I should not be from an early age. Or, worse, that I should be a humanist or some other secular sect which peddles an innate sense of superiority over others. Yes, abolish the requirement for collective worship (although, frankly, it is pretty thin on the ground) but don't replace it with brainwashing by other, non-religious means.
Posted by
russianimp
July 27, 2010 at 23:29
If religion still has value children will find it on their own. If it does not, we should stop indoctrinating children with it. Either way, thre is no moral or logical justification for imposing a particular set of religious beliefs.
Posted by
tayloran9
July 28, 2010 at 15:51
@cbest
I enjoyed reading your comment.
Don’t pay attention to comments such as Bakunin’s above, he seems confused in thinking that humanists or atheists ‘peddle’ a way of life or tell you how you should live. They don’t. The idea of a system that tells believers they are innately superior over others is actually a defining quality of a religion. And his comment about not wanting to be told what religion he can’t be is also another red herring, designed to make it seem that atheism and religion are both belief systems on an equal footing and therefore both prone to the same oppression and flawed thinking – they are not the same, atheism is not a belief system. In a secular society, Bakunin is absolutely free to practice any faith he so chooses. It’s simply a framework for equality that does not allow any one religion to be favoured politically, and argues that decisions and laws should be based on evidence and facts, not unsupported beliefs.
You sound like a clear, level headed and reasonable young person, exactly how I wish all kids could be at your age. There’s no doubt that much of it is to do with your atheistic upbringing and your parents have exactly the right attitude in allowing you to be free to investigate the world and come to your own conclusions. This is how I would do it if I were a parent. And you are absolutely right in saying that every kid should have this opportunity but unfortunately, for a lot of children, religious indoctrination continues at home making it far harder, if not impossible for them to question the validity of their religion and instilled values as they get older.
You have an opportunity that many religious people never get and that is to really investigate the world and approach things without inherent bias, use that to your advantage and appreciate it.
I enjoyed reading your comment.
Don’t pay attention to comments such as Bakunin’s above, he seems confused in thinking that humanists or atheists ‘peddle’ a way of life or tell you how you should live. They don’t. The idea of a system that tells believers they are innately superior over others is actually a defining quality of a religion. And his comment about not wanting to be told what religion he can’t be is also another red herring, designed to make it seem that atheism and religion are both belief systems on an equal footing and therefore both prone to the same oppression and flawed thinking – they are not the same, atheism is not a belief system. In a secular society, Bakunin is absolutely free to practice any faith he so chooses. It’s simply a framework for equality that does not allow any one religion to be favoured politically, and argues that decisions and laws should be based on evidence and facts, not unsupported beliefs.
You sound like a clear, level headed and reasonable young person, exactly how I wish all kids could be at your age. There’s no doubt that much of it is to do with your atheistic upbringing and your parents have exactly the right attitude in allowing you to be free to investigate the world and come to your own conclusions. This is how I would do it if I were a parent. And you are absolutely right in saying that every kid should have this opportunity but unfortunately, for a lot of children, religious indoctrination continues at home making it far harder, if not impossible for them to question the validity of their religion and instilled values as they get older.
You have an opportunity that many religious people never get and that is to really investigate the world and approach things without inherent bias, use that to your advantage and appreciate it.
Posted by
Baggins
July 28, 2010 at 21:02
Religious indoctrination has no place in state schools.
When those who have been given authority over our children insist they sit down and talk to imaginary supernatural beings, by this very action they are teaching our children that such super-beings exist.
That is indoctrination, no better than teaching children in a science lesson that a super-being magically made the first man out of mud.
It is wrong. So very, very wrong.
When those who have been given authority over our children insist they sit down and talk to imaginary supernatural beings, by this very action they are teaching our children that such super-beings exist.
That is indoctrination, no better than teaching children in a science lesson that a super-being magically made the first man out of mud.
It is wrong. So very, very wrong.
Posted by
LMarchmont
July 29, 2010 at 09:26
I attended a CofE school although I have not been christened and my parents are not religious. I never felt it did me much harm singing hymns and saying prayers - even though I didn't 'believe'. However, now I'm a parent with a child about to start school I must admit I'd prefer state schools to be more balanced in teaching of religious studies from day one rather than introducing information about other religions.
Assemblies should be inclusive, balanced and reflect the mixture of religions and those with no faith.
Assemblies should be inclusive, balanced and reflect the mixture of religions and those with no faith.
Posted by
Baggins
July 31, 2010 at 01:14
Don't pray in my school, and I won't think in your church
Posted by
biblewinsciencefail
July 31, 2010 at 08:08
speaking as someone who works in education, may i just say that my colleagues and myself work to defend and promote Christian teaching in assembly halls and classroom, and challenge and confront the nonsense of evolutionary theory and other fake science ideas. the tadpole shrimp is the latest species to defy evolutionary theory, as it is unchanged by so called evolution in 200m years apparently.
biblewinsciencefail @ youtube
biblewinsciencefail @ youtube
Posted by
biblewinsciencefail
July 31, 2010 at 08:09
oops, classrooms even. lose a house point
Posted by
biblewinsciencefail
July 31, 2010 at 08:10
baggins
athiest mindwashing has no place in schools either. let the kids think for themselves.
biblewinsciencefail @ youtube
athiest mindwashing has no place in schools either. let the kids think for themselves.
biblewinsciencefail @ youtube
Posted by
Baggins
July 31, 2010 at 10:10
biblewinsciencefail
I am glad that you agree with me that "mindwashing" of any sort has no place in schools.
The name you have chosen for yourself, however, suggests that you were not fortunate enough to have received such an unbiased education.
I am glad that you agree with me that "mindwashing" of any sort has no place in schools.
The name you have chosen for yourself, however, suggests that you were not fortunate enough to have received such an unbiased education.
Posted by
Baggins
July 31, 2010 at 10:20
biblewinsciencefail
Re: your comment on evolutionary theory and your work "educating" children.
Your statement that a species defies evolutionary theory because it has not changed over 200 million years shows a staggering ignorance of the Theory of Evolution and how it works. Do some research.
If this is the standard of your contribution to the education of other people's children I must say I am eternally grateful that you are not involved in my children's school.
Re: your comment on evolutionary theory and your work "educating" children.
Your statement that a species defies evolutionary theory because it has not changed over 200 million years shows a staggering ignorance of the Theory of Evolution and how it works. Do some research.
If this is the standard of your contribution to the education of other people's children I must say I am eternally grateful that you are not involved in my children's school.
Posted by
christopher
July 31, 2010 at 14:08
I find it so worrying that not only are people like biblewinsciencefail are allowed to teach children, but these misguided religious views are given special legal privilege over scientific, political or philosophical views.
See new thread "End legal privilege of religious over non-religious views"
See new thread "End legal privilege of religious over non-religious views"
Posted by
Mustbsensible
August 02, 2010 at 14:23
Religious indoctrination must have no place in education. Schools must be secular. Let parents indoctrinate their defenceless children at home if they must but don't let's have the state doing it too.
Posted by
quisquillian
August 02, 2010 at 14:30
Absolutely.
I am frequently annoyed by having to pay lip service to the Church of England during assemblies at school. I had assumed it was just a leftover of school tradition but was unaware it was law. This provision must be removed.
I am frequently annoyed by having to pay lip service to the Church of England during assemblies at school. I had assumed it was just a leftover of school tradition but was unaware it was law. This provision must be removed.
Posted by
hackeronsteroids
August 02, 2010 at 15:10
'...i just say that my colleagues and myself work to defend and promote Christian teaching in assembly halls and classroom, and challenge and confront the nonsense of evolutionary theory and other fake science ideas.'
If this is the case, your teaching contradicts both the curriculum and the established consensus of current science. As you are not performing your job correctly and meeting the needs of your students, if employed by the state, I would suggest you should seek employment in another field.
If this is the case, your teaching contradicts both the curriculum and the established consensus of current science. As you are not performing your job correctly and meeting the needs of your students, if employed by the state, I would suggest you should seek employment in another field.
Posted by
neva
August 04, 2010 at 10:35
Using language such as 'indoctrination of children' is daft.
I am not christian but studied in CofE and catholic schools. As a young student I sang along to all the hymns. As an older student I asked my mother more about our own religion and developed a strong belief - I still went to chapel every morning (I was in boarding school) although I didn't sing along anymore. I have not been harmed in any way at all by being part of the schools christian ways. In fact it made me stronger in my own religion.
I don't think people should get over excited by the concept of christian assemblies. Children need to learn to be respectful, not only of their own, but other religions too. If a non christian can stand in silence (or sing along just for the joy of singing) while the majority sing a hymn, it is the beginings of respect for others and their different ways. The British need to retain their culture and those who are clamouring for the neutralisation of British culture worry me. Yes the country is a mix of peoples but the bottom line is that it is a christian country with associated customs. By fussing about making special rules for the many various religions in schools you only take focus away from one of the key aspects of education and that is realising, living with, and accepting and respecting differences in people.
I am not christian but studied in CofE and catholic schools. As a young student I sang along to all the hymns. As an older student I asked my mother more about our own religion and developed a strong belief - I still went to chapel every morning (I was in boarding school) although I didn't sing along anymore. I have not been harmed in any way at all by being part of the schools christian ways. In fact it made me stronger in my own religion.
I don't think people should get over excited by the concept of christian assemblies. Children need to learn to be respectful, not only of their own, but other religions too. If a non christian can stand in silence (or sing along just for the joy of singing) while the majority sing a hymn, it is the beginings of respect for others and their different ways. The British need to retain their culture and those who are clamouring for the neutralisation of British culture worry me. Yes the country is a mix of peoples but the bottom line is that it is a christian country with associated customs. By fussing about making special rules for the many various religions in schools you only take focus away from one of the key aspects of education and that is realising, living with, and accepting and respecting differences in people.
Posted by
employeesorguk
August 04, 2010 at 19:09
5*
Posted by
SteveHedger
August 05, 2010 at 00:06
"I don't think people should get over excited by the concept of christian assemblies"
I'm not sure that we are excited. The expression seem to run from disappointed through despairing to horrified. I could be harsh and point out that although you claim no harm was done you still venerate an alternate bronze-age superstition as life affirming, and so I'd argue that instead of your education bringing you to rational thought and reason it has instead set the example that primitive fairy tales are the explanation for all and that the acceptance of this collective delusion which is slowly sinking the western world into terrorism and armed conflict is the way forward.
No harm done, then.
I'm not sure that we are excited. The expression seem to run from disappointed through despairing to horrified. I could be harsh and point out that although you claim no harm was done you still venerate an alternate bronze-age superstition as life affirming, and so I'd argue that instead of your education bringing you to rational thought and reason it has instead set the example that primitive fairy tales are the explanation for all and that the acceptance of this collective delusion which is slowly sinking the western world into terrorism and armed conflict is the way forward.
No harm done, then.
Posted by
WeAreBorg
August 05, 2010 at 17:29
As a non-Christian, I felt alienated and excluded from the school assemblies. I was at a non-faith state school; why should there be prayers if not everyone is of the same religion, or of a religion at all?
Posted by
neva
August 06, 2010 at 15:52
Don't be silly SteveHedger - you are daft to think that anything that is ancient must be wrong and must be wiped out - what a shallow shallow point of view - BUT you are welcome to your point of view.
Currently only one religion is associated with terrorism and that is no reason to damn the beliefs of all other peoples.
What this country needs is to stop elevating the issues of those who are noisy about their religion and refuse such people media time or politicians time.
The country has easter and xmas etc christian tradition - let all who are in schools here gain some awareness about this tradition/religion. It is important that children learn to be around those of another faith - whatever they may think about that faith. Many people of the world are religious - if UK children never interface with any religion than their own, they are not going to be best placed for life.
To WeAreBorg - tolerance is the name of the game. If 15 minutes of your time a day when school announcements were made and something christian happened made you feel excluded you were too self involved and self pitying. I don't think non christian kids need to join in the prayer - but standing there for a few minutes in silence can hardly be considered a trauma.
Currently only one religion is associated with terrorism and that is no reason to damn the beliefs of all other peoples.
What this country needs is to stop elevating the issues of those who are noisy about their religion and refuse such people media time or politicians time.
The country has easter and xmas etc christian tradition - let all who are in schools here gain some awareness about this tradition/religion. It is important that children learn to be around those of another faith - whatever they may think about that faith. Many people of the world are religious - if UK children never interface with any religion than their own, they are not going to be best placed for life.
To WeAreBorg - tolerance is the name of the game. If 15 minutes of your time a day when school announcements were made and something christian happened made you feel excluded you were too self involved and self pitying. I don't think non christian kids need to join in the prayer - but standing there for a few minutes in silence can hardly be considered a trauma.
Posted by
SteveHedger
August 07, 2010 at 07:35
neva
I don't suggest that things that are ancient should be discarded because they are ancient, I suggest that practices that are antiquated should be examined to ensure they are still relevant, and belief in fairies/pixies/leprechauns/gods doesn't seem to fit that bill.
I'd suggest that if you went to Belfast and asked which religion is the one that is associated with terrorism you'd get a different answer to that if you asked in London... or the Gaza strip. And quite apart from that, anyone defending the principle of religious tolerance or even the acceptance of religion is giving religiously motivated terrorists a justification.
The country does have Easter - named after a Greek goddess, I seem to recall, and not originally a Christian festival at all, but rather just one more celebration of Spring, much like Maypoles. We celebrate Christmas, which was a co-opting of any number of mid-winter festivals you could care to mention, and isn't uniquely Christian no matter what the current name suggests.
Many people of the world are religious... That doesn't actually lend a great deal of validity to their opinion, however. Many people in the world are in favour of nuking America back to the stone age, or banning rock music, or female genital mutilation - would you advocate those with equal measure? No, of course you wouldn't, because volume of opinion doesn't equate to justification of that opinion.
I, too, believe that we should educate children about the various religions of the world - knowing what people belief and hold sacred is important for two reasons: it gives us an understanding of what might otherwise cause offence in certain situations, and it highlights the ridiculousness of some of the practices and beliefs. Teaching about the many religions and philosophies on display, though, is a far cry from taking impressionable children and compelling them to actively take part in one specific narrowly selected subset of religious practices as though it had some merit or worth, enforced by the presence of authority figures such as teachers.
Tolerance is not the name of the game - so long as we continue to tolerate religion it will remain as a brake on social development. I don't advocate killing people or imprisoning them, I don't even advocate banning religion - we just need to educate people to think critically, and the foolishness will be left behind like the hollow earth theory, the flat earth theory and creationism.
Standing for a few minutes in silence isn't a trauma, but losing a child to bronze-age zombie-worshipping cults is a shame, and letting them grow up to suggest that uncritical acceptance of religion that gives terrorists a moral shield is self-defeating.
I don't suggest that things that are ancient should be discarded because they are ancient, I suggest that practices that are antiquated should be examined to ensure they are still relevant, and belief in fairies/pixies/leprechauns/gods doesn't seem to fit that bill.
I'd suggest that if you went to Belfast and asked which religion is the one that is associated with terrorism you'd get a different answer to that if you asked in London... or the Gaza strip. And quite apart from that, anyone defending the principle of religious tolerance or even the acceptance of religion is giving religiously motivated terrorists a justification.
The country does have Easter - named after a Greek goddess, I seem to recall, and not originally a Christian festival at all, but rather just one more celebration of Spring, much like Maypoles. We celebrate Christmas, which was a co-opting of any number of mid-winter festivals you could care to mention, and isn't uniquely Christian no matter what the current name suggests.
Many people of the world are religious... That doesn't actually lend a great deal of validity to their opinion, however. Many people in the world are in favour of nuking America back to the stone age, or banning rock music, or female genital mutilation - would you advocate those with equal measure? No, of course you wouldn't, because volume of opinion doesn't equate to justification of that opinion.
I, too, believe that we should educate children about the various religions of the world - knowing what people belief and hold sacred is important for two reasons: it gives us an understanding of what might otherwise cause offence in certain situations, and it highlights the ridiculousness of some of the practices and beliefs. Teaching about the many religions and philosophies on display, though, is a far cry from taking impressionable children and compelling them to actively take part in one specific narrowly selected subset of religious practices as though it had some merit or worth, enforced by the presence of authority figures such as teachers.
Tolerance is not the name of the game - so long as we continue to tolerate religion it will remain as a brake on social development. I don't advocate killing people or imprisoning them, I don't even advocate banning religion - we just need to educate people to think critically, and the foolishness will be left behind like the hollow earth theory, the flat earth theory and creationism.
Standing for a few minutes in silence isn't a trauma, but losing a child to bronze-age zombie-worshipping cults is a shame, and letting them grow up to suggest that uncritical acceptance of religion that gives terrorists a moral shield is self-defeating.
Posted by
DPF
August 07, 2010 at 19:57
Many of the comments on here from people supporting daily collective worship seem to be missing our strongest objection:
Collective Daily Worship is currently compulsory in state maintained schools which are categorised as "Religious character: Not Applicable" by OFSTED.
There is no secular option available to parents and pupils.
That, quite simply, is wrong.
Collective Daily Worship is currently compulsory in state maintained schools which are categorised as "Religious character: Not Applicable" by OFSTED.
There is no secular option available to parents and pupils.
That, quite simply, is wrong.
Posted by
nate1481
August 11, 2010 at 15:04
I disagree with an act of worship being a legal requirement.
I don’t think it should be banned, as long as it’s not compulsory, but the potential for wasting school time on it, not to mention the potential for offence; which region (and branch) should it be and what if if contradicts another one…
I don’t think it should be banned, as long as it’s not compulsory, but the potential for wasting school time on it, not to mention the potential for offence; which region (and branch) should it be and what if if contradicts another one…
Posted by
robin123
August 12, 2010 at 09:57
Despite the so called 'framing' of religious instruction which is completely undone when collective worship is delivered as fact and purely christian my son (normal for his age) is not yet mentally developed enough to understand 'some people beleive'. He is only capable of true or false particularly when it comes from an authority he is taught to trust. As a society we accept that among other things drinking and smoking are things that a child should not only be barred from doing but also be prevented from being exposed to until they are old enough to make an informed decision. His mother and I wanted to bring up our son to be a free thinker, regardless of our differing views we passionately believe he should be free from any indoctrination from me or her, but find ourselves forced to counter the ideas being put in his head. His response to us was.... is my teacher is lying?
So Mr Clegg what do you want to do to prevent my son considering either his teacher or his parents liars.
So Mr Clegg what do you want to do to prevent my son considering either his teacher or his parents liars.
Posted by
derbyandrew
August 12, 2010 at 10:55
I take it all of us on here went to school? I certainly didnt feel 'indoctrinated' and I'd be surprised if anyone else did.
Also the theme seems distinctly anti-christian which is a disturbing sheep like trend at the moment. I am not a church goer but we are a Chritian nation and I do support the Christian morals and ethos this nation was built upon.
There are more important areas for reform and debate - this is just Guardian reading clap-trap.
Also the theme seems distinctly anti-christian which is a disturbing sheep like trend at the moment. I am not a church goer but we are a Chritian nation and I do support the Christian morals and ethos this nation was built upon.
There are more important areas for reform and debate - this is just Guardian reading clap-trap.
Posted by
SteveHedger
August 12, 2010 at 12:21
The reason for the percieved 'anti-christian' sentiment is that the current legal requirements is for an act of worship 'of a broadly christian nature' be held by schools on a daily basis - this is the requirement we are seeking to have overturned.
More broadly, many of us would like to see faith schools of any ilk prohibited, but that is (I suspect) a less widely supported proposition.
As to 'we are a Christian nation'... based upon what? Church attendance? Stated belief (again, I suspect lower than you believe)? The fact that our unelected head of state for historic reasons is head of the local sect of the bronze-age zombie-cannibal cult?
We might - and I don't know the legal status - be a Christian nation in name, but we certainly no longer are in spirit. Thank God!
More broadly, many of us would like to see faith schools of any ilk prohibited, but that is (I suspect) a less widely supported proposition.
As to 'we are a Christian nation'... based upon what? Church attendance? Stated belief (again, I suspect lower than you believe)? The fact that our unelected head of state for historic reasons is head of the local sect of the bronze-age zombie-cannibal cult?
We might - and I don't know the legal status - be a Christian nation in name, but we certainly no longer are in spirit. Thank God!
Posted by
derbyandrew
August 12, 2010 at 13:04
SteveHedger
Bronze age zombie cannibal cult? To mock anothers beliefs in such a way is really quite low and offensive - I suggest you keep such comments to yourself. I think you'll find Britain is still regarded by most as a Christian nation. Is the 'Thank God' at the end an intended irony? I somehow dout you possess the intelligence.
ps Christianity in today form is slightly after the bronze age.
Bronze age zombie cannibal cult? To mock anothers beliefs in such a way is really quite low and offensive - I suggest you keep such comments to yourself. I think you'll find Britain is still regarded by most as a Christian nation. Is the 'Thank God' at the end an intended irony? I somehow dout you possess the intelligence.
ps Christianity in today form is slightly after the bronze age.
Posted by
nT6MOwIxWj0a8ueXMipb
August 12, 2010 at 14:47
I Think collective worship is indoctrination, which is fine if it's in church, where one (supposedly!) has the choice to be there - or not. Schools should be secular affairs and therefore truly inclusive. (The same goes for hospitals, too!).
Posted by
SteveHedger
August 12, 2010 at 17:08
"I somehow dout you have the intelligence?" ... but have enough intelligence to know that 'doubt' has a 'b' in it?
Given that your mythology is about a man rising from the dead, and your practices involve the symbolic 'eating of the dead god's flesh', I'd say Zombie cannibal cult is a fair description. Not phrased for an advert, obviously, but at least reasoned. Unlike your (badly spelled) assertion about my intelligence.
I'm interested to see how you think Christianity can move on - if it's the convenant of Jesus with the world, they who are you to diverge from it? If it isn't, then what exactly are you basing your religion on? Mere people's opinion? What's holy about that?
I treat religion with a measure of levity because that's what it deserves. If that upsets you, I apologise, but I consider it a measure above your insults to my intelligence.
Given that your mythology is about a man rising from the dead, and your practices involve the symbolic 'eating of the dead god's flesh', I'd say Zombie cannibal cult is a fair description. Not phrased for an advert, obviously, but at least reasoned. Unlike your (badly spelled) assertion about my intelligence.
I'm interested to see how you think Christianity can move on - if it's the convenant of Jesus with the world, they who are you to diverge from it? If it isn't, then what exactly are you basing your religion on? Mere people's opinion? What's holy about that?
I treat religion with a measure of levity because that's what it deserves. If that upsets you, I apologise, but I consider it a measure above your insults to my intelligence.
Posted by
derbyandrew
August 12, 2010 at 18:42
SteveHedger - You dont sound like a very nice person to be honest. Self centred, patronising and arrogant. My guess is you have few friends and a poor social life. Now go away and leave me alone as this is not the forum for debate between you and I.
Posted by
ManchesterJames
August 12, 2010 at 20:35
Good idea. I have never been religious and at about 15 years old I decided I did not want to fake prayer to a deity I did not believe in any more. I once quietly, with my eyes open, while everyone else prayed as told during assembly and the Deputy Head actually DEMANDED in front of other pupils that I pray. This wasn't in a religious school - it was in a community school in the late 90s. He (I hope) wouldn't have dreamed of demanding that a pupil from a family of Hindus, Sikhs etc to pray to Christian deities, so why should he be allowed to put me in that situation?
Posted by
getcarternow
August 13, 2010 at 13:23
its time for the religious bullies to be thrown out of the state system, religion has no place in a modern education system, do you really think this weak coalition will change anything, i think not, they have succumbed to the intoxication of office, take the lib dems, they are nothing but political prostitutes(no offense to working girls).
Posted by
amarshall
August 15, 2010 at 00:01
In theory I believe that religious indoctrination in schools, particularly schools that are not religious in character, is wrong, and it seems that many others feel the same. However, according to comments here many schools do not comply with the legislation. Surely it is inconsistent to keep a law that most people ignore, and pay inspectors to observe that it is being ignored. Let's tidy things up, and get rid of this law, which, is anachronistic anyway.
Posted by
christophermyson
August 16, 2010 at 10:59
Long overdue. Why should children be obliged to participate in something they may not believe in. Obligatory Hypocrisy!
Posted by
MWTroman
August 17, 2010 at 13:04
Long overdue. We must remember that this is not a ban on religious instruction in assembly but simply the removal of the mandatory requirement for all schools. My school tried to include it but it always felt at odds with other principles the school held such as open debate and repect for diversity.
Posted by
elmomail
August 19, 2010 at 01:30
Assemblies at my non-religious primary school included being taught about hell where we would go if we were naughty. Apparently it is constant pain, burning in fire and being tortured by a man-like devil for ever. Assembly was probably the one time when the headteacher felt permitted to tell us these terrifying lies and it is not something that should be inflicted on any children.
Posted by
KirstenMcKay
August 19, 2010 at 21:10
Children should have the freedom to choose their religion or beliefs or reject religion when they are old enough to decide for themselves. I went to a non-faith primary school in a white part of Glasgow, there was one Pakistani family in the whole school. These children's parents opted out of the christian assemblies and as a result they were the only children non-included. This law amounts to segregation along religious lines.
Posted by
ebarn
August 21, 2010 at 17:49
Agree with all the "scrap collective worship" lines - can we also included compulsory RE after 14. Re is great if what it really does is teach comparative religion (i.e. the study of faiths as a belief system not as fact) but so few truly do this and it wastes valuable time to get the GCSEs that matter (my children were given a 1/2 GCSE for attending RE lessons - they don't even bother to put it down on lists of exam results it's so pathetic but they still had to take time out of their other subjects to go to it)
Collective worship is divisive if it has any religious content at all as anyone from another religion or any non believers feel alienated.
As a school governor I can confirm it is the law to have collective worship and compulsory RE and that most schools try to find a way round it so that they aren't just peddling opinion as fact to impressionable minds. (i.e. they remove as much faith as possible) However, because its the law, Ofsted will penalise a schools for this.
Time our state schools were truly secular and assemblies were just that - an assembly of people gathering together for a common purpose - not to promote some faith.
As for faith schools - if people want to give their children a limited education where they are taught to obey and blindly follow the views of their parents then that is their right (although pity the children). However, the state should not contribute to something which is their personal choice. All our taxes go to providing a basic level of free education for all - if you choose not to take that up you should be on your own. - you wouldn't expect the state to pay for your private medical care just because you want to choose the kind of room would you?
Collective worship is divisive if it has any religious content at all as anyone from another religion or any non believers feel alienated.
As a school governor I can confirm it is the law to have collective worship and compulsory RE and that most schools try to find a way round it so that they aren't just peddling opinion as fact to impressionable minds. (i.e. they remove as much faith as possible) However, because its the law, Ofsted will penalise a schools for this.
Time our state schools were truly secular and assemblies were just that - an assembly of people gathering together for a common purpose - not to promote some faith.
As for faith schools - if people want to give their children a limited education where they are taught to obey and blindly follow the views of their parents then that is their right (although pity the children). However, the state should not contribute to something which is their personal choice. All our taxes go to providing a basic level of free education for all - if you choose not to take that up you should be on your own. - you wouldn't expect the state to pay for your private medical care just because you want to choose the kind of room would you?
Posted by
christopher
August 22, 2010 at 12:28
This topic is one of the most strongly supported ideas on Your Freedom, will Mr Clegg actually be pursuing this? I have a feeling the issues on this website will be used to back up existing party policy, not initiate new, if controversial policies.
Can we have any word from Mr Clegg et al on collective worship?
Can we have any word from Mr Clegg et al on collective worship?
Posted by
pravjey
August 23, 2010 at 22:28
I agree that schools should not be compelled to hold an act of collective worship. However, I would support schools teach children about different religions (at least the main ones of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism and Humanism). They should also allow for meetings for students and teachers of a particular faith, such as Christian Unions. Schools should still have the individual right to hold an act of collective worship.
Posted by
williamgcrook
August 27, 2010 at 18:25
Schools should teach about religion not force one on children it is child abuse and this continual separation of children by faith does and will continue to cause social problems. Religion if one feels the need should be taught at home I would like to see the French secular system where no faith is allowed to run schools where RE can be taught as a broad subject and pupils can look at science and anaylis the evidence of evolution etc . Collective worship should be stopped but it is good for students to met in a morning all together but to dicuss moral issues of the day not blind obedience to one faith or another
Posted by
PeterDavies
September 02, 2010 at 15:04
Assemblies should be about bringing the school together. Collective worship emphasises the most divisive issue between cultures and individuals.
Posted by
jay82_03
September 02, 2010 at 15:23
I want my children to grow up in a secular society; where they are encouraged to think critically and for themselves. Surely, this should be fundamental to education. I can't believe that in 2010 we are still making it compulsory to introduce children to bronze age mythology and calling it fact.
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